Wagner's Valhalla

[kaergaard]

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=513473

[kishnevi]

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=513473

Severe cuts to the score but not to the price.  Thanks, but I'll pass on that one.   

[jlaurson]

Severe cuts to the score but not to the price.  Thanks, but I'll pass on that one.   

It might be pointed out that
a.) Rienzi was never performed without cuts. Ever.
b.) Rienzi cannot be performed without cuts anymore, since the score no longer exists... either hidden in an archive in Moscow or burned along with Hitler.
c.) That the mere wish to see / hear Rienzi without cuts strikes me as masochistic to a worrisome degree. 

That said, the fairly complete premiere performance still lasted over six hours (something like 4 hours net-music)... and was by far the greatest success Wagner had until the Munich premiere of Die Meistersinger.

A line from a Gramophone reviewer (about Hollreiser's recording -- still my go-to version until the new one on Oehms comes out) applies: "[A] more complete recording ...is possible, if not especially desirable..."

[kishnevi]

It might be pointed out that
a.) Rienzi was never performed without cuts. Ever.
b.) Rienzi cannot be performed without cuts anymore, since the score no longer exists... either hidden in an archive in Moscow or burned along with Hitler.
c.) That the mere wish to see / hear Rienzi without cuts strikes me as masochistic to a worrisome degree. 

That said, the fairly complete premiere performance still lasted over six hours (something like 4 hours net-music)... and was by far the greatest success Wagner had until the Munich premiere of Die Meistersinger.

A line from a Gramophone reviewer (about Hollreiser's recording -- still my go-to version until the new one on Oehms comes out) applies: "[A] more complete recording ...is possible, if not especially desirable..."

Well, unlike Dresden theater audiences, I could listen to it over two evenings and not pay twice. 
However, since the likelihood of me getting two recordings of Rienzi is considerably less than many other operas, it makes sense to make sure that the performance I get is at least relatively complete--and certainly not one that seems to cut out an hour and half worth of the music.

[jlaurson]

Well, unlike Dresden theater audiences, I could listen to it over two evenings and not pay twice. 

Even the plans to have Rienzi shown on two consecutive nights never included the plan to charge full intermission twice. At least I can't find anything that confirms that MusicWeb 'factoid'.

However, since the likelihood of me getting two recordings of Rienzi is considerably less than many other operas, it makes sense to make sure that the performance I get is at least relatively complete--and certainly not one that seems to cut out an hour and half worth of the music.

"Worth" being the key-word here. 

But I hear you. You will know best what you want, and what not. Though ultimately it's the enjoyment of the thing that matters, I assume. A drab but complete (if it were possible) recording of Rienzi would be less to the point than one that is cut but hot stuff. ("The food is horrible here!" "Yes, and the portions are so small.")  I certainly feel that way about Handel operas.
I understand that recordings have changed our attitude from cutting as an essential element of performing opera to barbarian anathema of some alleged fidelity... but regular attendance of live performances usually tends to correct that. I've never sat in an opera that wasn't long enough.

Finally: If you don't want to wait two years (performance in 2013, presumed release in early 2014 or very late 2013) I'd recommend the Hollreiser recording. It only has one realistic rival (Sawallisch 1983, Orfeo) and is a very fine compromise... the easy first (and only, as you realistically say) choice.

For Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot, where there is no such happy alternative to Sawallisch's live recordings of the early Triology on Orfeo, I would probably wait. Die Feen should be released any time now, I reckon (unless they're holding out to release as a set, which I can't believe but could have confirmed/clarified), and Das Liebesverbot early 2013. The productions from Oehms and the Frankfurt Opera are excellent; their Palestrina is by MILES the best recording of that opera (esp. if you take SQ into consideration), their url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001U1LA2K/goodmusicguide-20]Lear[/url][/i], which I also heard live, was very well captured. (Admittedly those two come from a different venue, the Opera House, but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to capture the orchestra as well or better in the space of the Alte Oper. (That is where Denon recorded all those Inbal performances...)

[kaergaard]

I am surprised that even you, Dear Jens, don't have the interest and courage - Neugierde; - to try the 2010 Deutsche Opera Berlin performence! Contemporary directing of course, maybe not fitting in with the taste of old folks! 

[BMW]

Finally: If you don't want to wait two years (performance in 2013, presumed release in early 2014 or very late 2013) I'd recommend the Hollreiser recording. It only has one realistic rival (Sawallisch 1983, Orfeo) and is a very fine compromise... the easy first (and only, as you realistically say) choice.

The Edward Downes recording is very good, if you can get a hold of a copy (just saw that it is unavailable on Amazon).

[kaergaard]

I just refreshed my memory of the Philipp Stölzl production! The incredibly agile performance of Torsten Kerl - Rienzi -  during the well-known overture to Rienzi is worth every penny of the sound and video high quality of the Unitel Classica recording.

[jlaurson]

I am surprised that even you, Dear Jens, don't have the interest and courage - Neugierde; - to try the 2010 Deutsche Opera Berlin performence! Contemporary directing of course, maybe not fitting in with the taste of old folks! 

huh? what ever gave you that idea? i was trying to make the case for that production (if only on principle, since I've not seen it). and what does any of it have to do with courage?

[kishnevi]

But I hear you. You will know best what you want, and what not. Though ultimately it's the enjoyment of the thing that matters, I assume. A drab but complete (if it were possible) recording of Rienzi would be less to the point than one that is cut but hot stuff. ("The food is horrible here!" "Yes, and the portions are so small.")  I certainly feel that way about Handel operas.
I understand that recordings have changed our attitude from cutting as an essential element of performing opera to barbarian anathema of some alleged fidelity... but regular attendance of live performances usually tends to correct that. I've never sat in an opera that wasn't long enough.

Thanks for the pointers. I'll certainly go for the Hollreiser in the near future. 
As to complete recordings--in these days of programmable CD players and Ipods, if a recording is too complete, the listener can make at least some cuts by programming or playlisting in a way that skips the tracks they don't like--and not have to depend on the recording producer's judgment of what to keep in.  (Plus of course they know what's being left out, which isn't always the case with some incomplete recordings.)

[kaergaard]

and what does any of it have to do with courage?

It takes courage to assign the old, remembered, treasured performance to the shelf, resting place of the other tried and true ones, and then courageously spend your money on recorded efforts of new, young directors, conductors and performers. You might even like their ideas, approve of them, and then gloat about your new discovery by posting your opinion at a classical music forum!   

[jlaurson]

It takes courage to assign the old, remembered, treasured performance to the shelf, resting place of the other tried and true ones, and then courageously spend your money on recorded efforts of new, young directors, conductors and performers. You might even like their ideas, approve of them, and then gloat about your new discovery by posting your opinion at a classical music forum!   

Well, I thought OCCDCD takes care of that, not courage. Fortunately (?) your scenario doesn't really apply to me anyway... not the least because I'd get plenty new exposure to new things from live performances, if I wasn't already inundated with new recordings and DVDs.
Your point has merit in general, but if you're stating it in gentle opposition of what you presume my tastes to be, it'd be ironic -- since I'd like to think I'm rather vocal about debunking "Golden Age" thinking (i.e. with singers), and am even more vocal about the pernicious falsehood of "tradition" in opera productions. One example, among many.

As to complete recordings--in these days of programmable CD players and Ipods, if a recording is too complete, the listener can make at least some cuts by programming or playlisting in a way that skips the tracks they don't like--and not have to depend on the recording producer's judgment of what to keep in.

Programmable CD players have been around for 20+ years -- and I've heard the argument (and made it myself) that we can just re-program the inner movements of the Mahler Sixth or create our playlists or skip one piece after the conclusion of another (when silence is merited). And yet I've never actually done that. And I don't know anyone who has actually ever done that. I, and everyone I know, basically plop the CD in the player and press Play. A generalization, of course, but I reckon it's comes close to how most music listeners operate.

Now I am wondering if that is actually changing with media that contain the music in digital form directly... iPods or Spotify et al. The user is already much more closer to  - and intuned with the state of the music as a series of individual tracks... so it would seem likely that there is much more actual futzing around with tracks and playlists. I know even my Spotify behavior is defined by making playlists (for others or myself), not listening to straight albums.

(That said, in a Wagner opera -- unlike a Handel opera -- it will be difficult to make those cuts yourself.)

[Leo K.]

I've been trying to grasp Wagner for years. His Funeral music for Siegfried is among the most sublime music I've ever heard, and it's even made me cry on occasion, which is very rare for me to do while listening to music.

I've very much enjoyed Levine's Ring Cycle, which I watched during it's first airing on PBS many years ago. At that time, I recorded it with a cassette player while it played, and returned to this Ring to soak up the amazing melodies and orchestration. I no longer have those cassettes, and never have returned to this cycle, which is unfortunate because I could have learned and got familiar with the Ring if I would have stayed with it. My memories are fond of listening to Siegfried and Gotterdammerung in particular.

Eventually, I got the Solti set on LP, but it never grabbed me like I had hoped it would. After awhile, the Ring's length seemed like a barrier to learning this work, and it dropped off my musical radar. I still listen to excerpts, but I yearn to know this cycle, as well as Wagner's other great works.

I now have the Karajan set, and I will start listening in earnest, knowing it will take some time.

[Lisztianwagner]

 

I hope you'll like the Karajan set, maybe it's the finest recording of the Ring Cycle ever made!!!

[Leo K.]

I hope you'll like the Karajan set, maybe it's the finest recording of the Ring Cycle ever made!!!

Thanks! I'm really, really looking forward to making my way through this account! 

[madaboutmahler]

Finished the Ring Cycle today....  What a journey it has been! By the end, I couldn't control my emotions and really was in tears. So incredibly beautiful, glorious, powerful... so moving! Such a perfect ending. I have to say that I was in tears for quite a lot of the third act of Gotterdammerung, I was moved by so much of it! The funeral music was so glorious!

I would have to say that Gotterdammerung is my favourite of the Ring Cycle. I loved every second of it!

Such an amazing musical journey...

And the Karajan performance was absolutely sublime! I enjoyed it extremely much. Very expressive, beautiful performances. Extremely glad to have had it as my first Ring Cycle! On reading your previous post, Leo, I hope you enjoy it!

Thank you all for guiding me along the way!

LONG LIVE WAGNER!

[Lisztianwagner]

"Hei! Daniel gehört nun der Niblungen Hort!"

Those words couldn't make me happier, I'm so so glad you've loved the Ring Cycle, one of the most beautiful, powerful and thrilling works ever composed! And the Karajan recording is absolutely gorgeous, absolutely impressive and passionate!

[madaboutmahler]

"Hei! Daniel gehört nun der Niblungen Hort!"

Those words couldn't make me happier, I'm so so glad you've loved the Ring Cycle, one of the most beautiful, powerful and thrilling works ever composed! And the Karajan recording is absolutely gorgeous, absolutely impressive and passionate!

Thank you, Ilaria! I agree, surely one of the greatest masterpieces of all time!

[Lisztianwagner]

Thank you, Ilaria! I agree, surely one of the greatest masterpieces of all time!

LONG LIVE WAGNER!

I absolutely agree with you! Now I expect you will dive into Tristan und Isolde!

[madaboutmahler]

I absolutely agree with you! Now I expect you will dive into Tristan und Isolde!

I am certainly very excited to hear more Wagner operas, Ilaria!