Hi

[Lisztianwagner]

I think Solti's Ring is 'the one ring that rules the others' and his performers were, from my point of view, the best. Wotan, Siegfried, Brunnhilde, Gunther, Hagen, Alberich, Fricka, Fafner, Hundig are all amazing under Solti.
On the other hand, Karajan is a genius... that's undeniable. But Karajan is also too karajanic. From where I stand, he involves a little too much into the composers operas. Usually it's ok because his way of understanding and the composers wishes regarding a piece of music are often the same. Sometimes it's not like that. I guess all conductors are better with one composer and worse with others. There are no all reference interpretation/reference recording conductors, that's for sure. But Karajan is too confident at times and 'his hands fall too unflinching' in 'an almost oppressive stance'. I guess everybody knows that he was special in many ways. He was not just an (amazing) conductor but also an excellent director.
I love his 9th Symphony (From the New World) interpretation of Dvorak's masterpiece. It's so involving, so powerful, so fast but I feel and I know it's far from being the right reading. I guess that's why I sometimes avoid him. Hope my personal apprehension doesn't bother you. I really think he is a genius... not always the right one, though.
I am familliar as a novice can be with both the Parsifal and Tristan and Isolde operas. Thanks for the reminder. Wagner is simply almighty.

No problem, I understand what you mean and I respect your opinion. Concerning Solti's Ring Cycle, it's certainly a masterpiece: the sound quality is excellent, the cast is great and the Wiener Philharmoniker is the absolutely one of the best orchestras you can find; all under the wonderful interpretation of Georg Solti. But I personally prefer Karajan's recording, it expresses a so haunting beauty, it's so passionate, intense and thrilling....more powerful than the Solti, in my opinion. Moreover I think Fischer-Dieskau is the best Wotan I've ever heard.
Concerning Karajan himself, I totally agree he's a genius; what marvelous, impressive sound he was able to extract from the orchestras he conducted, what magical atmosphere he was able to create! He was definitely the best conductor of the 20th century, especially about German music.
Well, as you can see, I'm a massive fan of Karajan.

Absolutely, what a genius Wagner was!

[johndoe21ro]

No problem, I understand what you mean and I respect your opinion. Concerning Solti's Ring Cycle, it's certainly a masterpiece: the sound quality is excellent, the cast is great and the Wiener Philharmoniker is the absolutely one of the best orchestras you can find; all under the wonderful interpretation of Georg Solti. But I personally prefer Karajan's recording, it expresses a so haunting beauty, it's so passionate, intense and thrilling....more powerful than the Solti, in my opinion. Moreover I think Fischer-Dieskau is the best Wotan I've ever heard.
Concerning Karajan himself, I totally agree he's a genius; what marvelous, impressive sound he was able to extract from the orchestras he conducted, what magical atmosphere he was able to create! He was definitely the best conductor of the 20th century, especially about German music.
Well, as you can see, I'm a massive fan of Karajan.

Absolutely, what a genius Wagner was!

Trying not to offend you, I have to say that I don't agree with you about Karajan. He was a genius, undoubtely. He was an amazing conductor and much more than that. But to me he wasn't the best conductor of the 20th century. There are many other excellent conductors worthy of attention: Bernstein, Solti, Kleiber, Furtwangler, Giulini, Harnoncourt, Kubelik, Haitink, Szell, Tennstedt maybe Sargent, Sir C. Davis, Barbirolli, Jochum, Reiner... Ormandy, Walter and Skrowaczewski shouldn't be forgotten, also. I think Karajan is over-rated in the same manner that Celibidache was under-rated. Celibidache is definitely not the best by a far margin. Both Karajan and Celibidache were geniuses, both of them were amazing conductors and both of them were different, unique, special (in ways the others were not). You can't just name one best conductor because there isn't such a thing as a supreme conductor. And there is no conductor to conduct all classic music in an exceptional manner. Some were good romantic period conductor (some were better at Brahms, worse at Mahler, mediocre when conducting Bruckner and so on and so forth...) and bad classical or baroque period conductors. It's important to select and appreciate the best ones for each period, for each composer and for each piece of music. And most of all, it's important to enjoy classical music according to your taste. Classifications are more or less important. Feeling good, living the music is all that matters.

P.S. I favor Bernstein, Solti, Eiji Oue, S. Ozawa, Skrowaczewski, Harnoncourt, Szell, Pappano, Abbado, Chailly, Kunzel, Karajan, Gielen, Salonen and many others. Yes, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was amazing and nobody can take that away from him.

[Lisztianwagner]

Trying not to offend you, I have to say that I don't agree with you about Karajan. He was a genius, undoubtely. He was an amazing conductor and much more than that. But to me he wasn't the best conductor of the 20th century. There are many other excellent conductors worthy of attention: Bernstein, Solti, Kleiber, Furtwangler, Giulini, Harnoncourt, Kubelik, Haitink, Szell, Tennstedt maybe Sargent, Sir C. Davis, Barbirolli, Jochum, Reiner... Ormandy, Walter and Skrowaczewski shouldn't be forgotten, also. I think Karajan is over-rated in the same manner that Celibidache was under-rated. Celibidache is definitely not the best by a far margin. Both Karajan and Celibidache were geniuses, both of them were amazing conductors and both of them were different, unique, special (in ways the others were not). You can't just name one best conductor because there isn't such a thing as a supreme conductor. And there is no conductor to conduct all classic music in an exceptional manner. Some were good romantic period conductor (some were better at Brahms, worse at Mahler, mediocre when conducting Bruckner and so on and so forth...) and bad classical or baroque period conductors. It's important to select and appreciate the best ones for each period, for each composer and for each piece of music. And most of all, it's important to enjoy classical music according to your taste. Classifications are more or less important. Feeling good, living the music is all that matters.

P.S. I favor Bernstein, Solti, Eiji Oue, S. Ozawa, Skrowaczewski, Harnoncourt, Szell, Pappano, Abbado, Chailly, Kunzel, Karajan, Gielen, Salonen and many others. Yes, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was amazing and nobody can take that away from him.

I'm sorry I had to be clearer, I agreed with you about saying that Karajan was a genius; apart from that, we have different opinions concerning how he applied that genius. We all have our personal taste and we could be moved by the style and the interpretation of particular conductors. What I tried to say before is that while you sometimes find his recordings a bit too karajanic, I'm just the opposite: whenever I listen to Karajan's performances, it's like I can really perceive what the composers felt and wanted to express through their music; the other versions usually sound lacking something compared to the Karajan. That's why I consider him the best conductor of the 20th century. The only exceptions for me are Mahler and the Strauss Family (I think Bernstein/Solti and Boskovsky are better).

I adore all the conductors you mentioned; I'll also include Erich Kleiber, Jansons, Rattle, Barenboim, Bohm and Boskovsky though.

[johndoe21ro]

I'm sorry I had to be clearer, I agreed with you about saying that Karajan was a genius; apart from that, we have different opinions concerning how he applied that genius. We all have our personal taste and we could be moved by the style and the interpretation of particular conductors. What I tried to say before is that while you sometimes find his recordings a bit too karajanic, I'm just the opposite: whenever I listen to Karajan's performances, it's like I can really perceive what the composers felt and wanted to express through their music; the other versions usually sound lacking something compared to the Karajan. That's why I consider him the best conductor of the 20th century. The only exceptions for me are Mahler and the Strauss Family (I think Bernstein/Solti and Boskovsky are better).

I adore all the conductors you mentioned; I'll also include Erich Kleiber, Jansons, Rattle, Barenboim, Bohm and Boskovsky though.

Kleiber is on my list.. Hard to miss that one.
In the end everybody has to know that we are more or less ruled by subjectivism. There are no laws in music and nobody's perfect.

[Lisztianwagner]

Kleiber is on my list.. Hard to miss that one.
In the end everybody has to know that we are more or less ruled by subjectivism. There are no laws in music and nobody's perfect.

Yes, that's certainly true.
Sorry, I though the Kleiber you mentioned was Carlos......

[DavidRoss]

Hello, Radu...welcome to GMG!  Thanks for deciding to participate and share your thoughts with us. 

[johndoe21ro]

Hello, Radu...welcome to GMG! Thanks for deciding to participate and share your thoughts with us.

It's my guilty pleasure to do it, David. I thank you all for making this forum so hot in every aspect of its existence! I'm having a terrific time.