Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1

[zauberflöte]

Mahler's symphonies are so big and world-encompassing that there's a lot of room for different but valid approaches to them, and the predilections of conductors may be more obvious and telling than with most other composers.

Precisely. I'm going to use that defense as I present my own somewhat unusual list.

The X group, overall perhaps of better quality than the Y group. Every performance could advance. I felt bad placing the ones I did at the bottom.

I'm one who likes the pushing and pulling of Mahler in a way that would be intolerable in Mozart, or even Wagner. Perhaps it stems from Joseph Losey's film of Death in Venice with its unending use of the Mahler 5th Symphony Adagietto. Indulgent gorgeousness with disease hovering, the strawberries too ripe. Romanticism at the end of its usefulness. Voluptuous decay.

A1 is good example. I didn't detect the sober clarity that hurt the performance in the first round. It pushes and pulls a lot. The only problem I have is the pulling seems a bit arbitrary, just for effect. But I still like it. Decent, if nothing special, opening to the third movement. Nice transition to the second part of the march. It's very high quality. I thought this would rank higher, but it was the first I listened to and it kept dropping as the others revealed even more felicities. Rank: 5.

With A4, we arrive at my own personal paradise. I'm odd man out here. I love A4, though it's pretty clear my vote will not save it; A4 didn't do so well in the first round either. Not sure what it is. Maybe it's the irresistible transition in the trio. Or maybe it's the too-quick-by-half third movement that slowly (or, rather, quickly) builds in stature to the point it sounds like the Godfather on LSD-infused Gefilte fish crashing a funeral march. (I know, I know, absurd metaphor. Jewish Italian? Yet it's what came to mind.) Yes, it's heavy handed but I love the way things start out almost perfunctorily and then grow delirious. It's not how I imagined Mahler should sound but the performance made me throw away those preconceptions. Again, my top choice, but I fear I'm going to have to say goodbye to it here. Rank: 1.

B6.  Nice live performance. Thwack those drums! The best timpani of the bunch.  Wonderful third movement with a tempo that's just a shade fast. Still, a real dirge. Great zing in the violins seemingly coming out of nowhere. Rank: 2.

B7. Well judged. In other words, a bit of a snoozefest. Very well mannered, not vulgar at all. A fatal flaw, the kind of performance that gets well reviewed in respectable music magazines. Good third movement, slower than the others, which I like, and it builds ominously. Clip ends better than it begins. Rank: 6.

C5. Intriguing third movement, a little odder than some of the others. Trio a bit commonplace. Excellent but middle of this particular road. Rank: 4.

C8. Trio immediately caught my attention with its pointed phrasing, but then it seemed to lose the originality with which it was flirting. But it's still beautiful. Great excitement at the end of second movement. Well considered opening of the third movement. Then the conductor tries to take it somewhere but it never completely arrives. Nothing to fault here, it just doesn't take me to strange and wonderful places. Rank: 3.

Ranking.
1. A4
2. B6
3. C8
4. C5
5. A1
6. B7 

[zauberflöte]

If Mahler's intent in the trio is a slow noble waltz, then my conjecture is that the conductors of A1 and A4 were trying to emphasize the noble aspect. They did this by creating a feeling of upper-class snobbishness, pretentiousness, self-awareness.

You may be on to something regarding A1, but I don't really see A4 falling quite into that pattern. A4 seems an odd mix of vulgarity with a certain pride in it all the way through, which is one reason I like it. But I'm speaking in relative terms only. This is formal orchestral music, after all, not a Yiddish folk song.

[DavidRoss]

I'm one who likes the pushing and pulling of Mahler in a way that would be intolerable in Mozart, or even Wagner. Perhaps it stems from Joseph Losey's film of Death in Venice with its unending use of the Mahler 5th Symphony Adagietto. Indulgent gorgeousness with disease hovering, the strawberries too ripe. Romanticism at the end of its usefulness. Voluptuous decay.

A1 is good example. I didn't detect the sober clarity that hurt the performance in the first round. It pushes and pulls a lot. The only problem I have is the pulling seems a bit arbitrary, just for effect. But I still like it.

The bolded section especially is very nicely put.  A Tennstedt fan...?

It sounds to me as if we're hearing much the same things, but our judgments about what we're hearing differ widely. You like all the "pushing and pulling." I don't. Not when it seems so arbitrary, impeding the flow of the music and calling attention to itself rather than highlighting a delicate turn of phrase, as when lingering over and savoring an exquisite moment before going on.

The latter is how I hear MTT--yet I've seen criticism indicating that some folks hear the former. What's more peculiar is that some who accuse MTT of arbitrary, indulgent pushing and pulling are themselves fans of Tennstedt or Rattle and their sort! 

I, too, like Mahler's heady fin de siècle decadence, but hear Mahler himself presenting it ironically, as the ultimate outsider, reveling a bit in its headiness while at the same time judging it and distancing himself from its artifice, rather than identifying with it as he does with the natural world. It seems to me that many Mahler fans--including some big name conductors--get it absolutely backwards, imagining sarcasm regarding the folk music elements instead of elevating them as an equally valid part of his experience of the musical world.

Here comes the big question: Let's stipulate that a color-blind man's experience of a Matisse is valid, at least within the limitations of his experience and ability.  Is it equal to the experience of a color-visioned man? Especially one schooled in the history and production of fine art painting?

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for your votes, very interesting. And thank you also for posting your thoughts about what you like you to hear in Mahler, very interesting indeed! Great posts!

[TimH]

GROUP Y

1st = A5. 2nd movt: Very sedate pace, but this gives it plenty of room to breathe - elegant, delicate, refined, sleepy, whimsical, charming. (I'm expecting other reviewers to think the slowness is a bit self-indulgent, but it works for me!) 3rd movt: Double bass solo clear and pure, if a little recessed; subtle building up of layers; schmalzy oboes/trumpets with clever variation of speed; beautiful strings.

2nd = C2. 2nd movt: Warm sound, lovely gently swaying lilt. Trumpet trill at end a bit abrasive! 3rd movt: Double bass excellent tone, well positioned; oboes/trumpets quite straight, no bending of speed; nice transparent texture for strings.

Difficult to choose between the next three:

3rd = B8. 2nd movt: Quick, solid, straightforward, keeping it simple. 3rd movt: Smooth and stylish double bass; very slow for oboes/trumpets but then accelerates rapidly; haunting ending.

4th = B1. 2nd movt: tempo just right, strings smooth but strong, effective rubato and sparkling ending. 3rd movt: Rather nasal double bass, excess vibrato a little unattractive, gets it off to a bad start.

5th = A8. 2nd movt: Seemed very fast after listening to A5 and thought could linger more - but certainly not the fastest; firm string tone. 3rd movt: Rather nasal, whiny and sliding around double bass solo; however, what follows is well poised and very effective.

And finally...

6th = C6. 2nd movt: Very very slow!!! Too slow - very static, everything being held up - frustrating - just does not work. 3rd movt: Double bass swells up and down; oboes/trumpets dragging,  ending lacks mystery (but maybe I'm conditioned by the 2nd movt!)

Really, apart from C6, I enjoyed all the performances very much!

[zauberflöte]

The bolded section especially is very nicely put.  A Tennstedt fan...?

It sounds to me as if we're hearing much the same things, but our judgments about what we're hearing differ widely. You like all the "pushing and pulling." I don't. Not when it seems so arbitrary, impeding the flow of the music and calling attention to itself rather than highlighting a delicate turn of phrase, as when lingering over and savoring an exquisite moment before going on.

The latter is how I hear MTT--yet I've seen criticism indicating that some folks hear the former. What's more peculiar is that some who accuse MTT of arbitrary, indulgent pushing and pulling are themselves fans of Tennstedt or Rattle and their sort! 

I, too, like Mahler's heady fin de siècle decadence, but hear Mahler himself presenting it ironically, as the ultimate outsider, reveling a bit in its headiness while at the same time judging it and distancing himself from its artifice, rather than identifying with it as he does with the natural world. It seems to me that many Mahler fans--including some big name conductors--get it absolutely backwards, imagining sarcasm regarding the folk music elements instead of elevating them as an equally valid part of his experience of the musical world.

Here comes the big question: Let's stipulate that a color-blind man's experience of a Matisse is valid, at least within the limitations of his experience and ability.  Is it equal to the experience of a color-visioned man? Especially one schooled in the history and production of fine art painting?

Lots to discuss here. Why yes, I do like Tennstedt, even Rattle sometimes, though less often. But I don't seek out their performances the way I do others.
I don't like pushing and pulling just for the sake of it; that's one reason I balked at A1 while embracing A4, and why I never cared for Zubin Mehta during his tenure in New York, my birthplace.
I was at an MTT performance of The Mahler 5th. It was exceptional, highly personal but never indulgent the way his mentor Bernstein so often was. MTT also had an extraordinary command over an orchestra that followed his lead almost as if it had been born playing the piece. 

And then there's Lenny himself. I was lucky enough to attend what I'm pretty sure was the last performance he ever gave of the Mahler 2nd, certainly his last with the NY Philharmonic. Most extraordinary first movement I've ever heard, much like the DG recorded version, also with the NY Phil and recorded in the same venue. (Bernstein had a way of making the wretched acoustics of Avery Fisher Hall sound almost wonderful.) Lots of pushing and pulling, with the slowest pace imaginable. The slow tempos hurt in the "Urlicht" and, especially, in the last movement. But that first movement, my goodness! The "look at me do this" quality was ever present but it all led to the kind of emotional experience I seek in the concert hall but only occasionally receive.

As to your statement Mahler was presenting the decadence ironically, I had been subconsciously aware of it but have never heard it expressed so concretely. It strikes me as exactly right. Thanks for that. Mahler, the ultimate outsider, the Austrian Jew who converts to Catholicism just to be able to get work, and then he writes a "resurrection" symphony, of all things.
The FJ third movement of Symphony no. 1 might be the best example of what you talk about, which is why I say, "give 'er all she's got."     

Regarding your Matisse question, we could spend days on it. It's almost unanswerable.
I'll just say this: it would have as much value as the viewer experiencing the painting would give to it, though it might not be of value to a person the viewer is telling the experience to.
The color-blind person, if blessed with imagination, even if ignorant in art history, might see something in the form of the painting that makes it of exceptional value to him/her in a way the educated authority might not even consider important.
I'm reminded of something the Swedish filmmaker Ingmar Bergman once said. Someone came up to him after a showing of one of his films to express how much he enjoyed it, yet his interpretation seemed completely off the mark to Bergman. No matter, Bergman said. "I make my films for use." How a person uses them is his own business.
Opinion shapers will always be out there trying to assert their will. Some will follow, others won't. There are no absolutes in the human experience save one: no one gets out of here alive.

[DavidRoss]

Lots to discuss here.

Way cool...thanks for your thoughtful response!

The Matisse question, of course, has no answer...or too many answers. As you clearly recognize, it's not about the answer but about the further questions the question provokes and the understanding that only follows such consideration.

I agree completely about the third movement of the First. From recasting "Frere Jacques" as a dirge to elevating Yiddish street music to the symphony hall, it embodies much that is unique and wonderful and intoxicating about Mahler's music. And it's not surprising that it baffled the elite audiences of his day whereas we post-moderns love it!

P.S. From the curious coincidences department: I'll be attending an MTT/SFS performance of Mahler's 5th this week, along with a new piece by Sam Adams (John Adams's son), Drift and Providence, which I'm especially interested in hearing because Adams is currently writing a piece for my son.

[trung224]

 Here is my feeling about X group
B6: After hearing the lackluster 1st movement, I don't expect more from this performance, but the clip contained excerpt from 2nd and 3rd movement is great.  Heart-feel Opening, Biting conclusion in movement, and great funeral march. Rank 1
C5: Energetic, somewhat brutal in 2nd movement (strong low brass and percussion), but autonomous in funeral march. Rank 2
A4: very beautiful in deliberate pace. Some nice push and pull. Somewhat I have impressed by the first movement. Rank 3
C8: Beautiful play with some unique and convincing phrasing somewhere. Rank 4
B7: Energetic but too much simple phrasing, leave no memorable. Rank 5
A1: Too slow, understated + the deliberate pace in movement 1 , the result is sleep feeling.
  B6>C5>A4>C8>B7>B7>A1

[mc ukrneal]

Here comes the big question: Let's stipulate that a color-blind man's experience of a Matisse is valid, at least within the limitations of his experience and ability.  Is it equal to the experience of a color-visioned man? Especially one schooled in the history and production of fine art painting?

Too many comments since my last post to address everything I'd like to, so I'll start with this question. My answer is no, it is not equal. But what I cannot determine is whether it is better or worse, or merely different. And this segues beautifully into Frere Jacques. Despite many years of hearing this piece (#1), I totally missed the reference (perhaps it says something about me or the versions I heard, but I'll leave that to the side). And it would have been nice if someone had spelled out what FJ was (spent two pages thinking it was Father Jack or something  ). But now that I know there is a reference in the music, I don't feel it really adds all that much. Perhaps I am worse than the color-blind man - seeing everything, yet seeing/knowing nothing (or less). This Frere Jacques can be decadent? It can be ironic? Should it be (one or the other or both)?  I think this is one of those times where I stand in front of the Matisse painting and think, "That's nice," and walk on over to the Renoir. Perhaps it is because the song has little meaning for me personally. I don't see decadence, though perhaps irony as a parody of a sorts on the frere jacques theme. But this is what I sometimes dislike about Mahler interpretations - they try to make the music say these things instead of letting the music hint at the possibities. ALthough, it seems I needed a big hammer to see it (Where is Madmahler when you need him!?!).

And what do you mean by pulling and pushing the music? I am not clear quite exactly what you mean.

[zauberflöte]

And what do you mean by pulling and pushing the music? I am not clear quite exactly what you mean.

Excessive ritardando or accelerando in a phrase or a mere moment of phrase to highlight it.
Check out the phrase at 4:19 of the following video for an example of excessive slowing down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9_ONIz8XKA

Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw

[zauberflöte]

P.S. From the curious coincidences department: I'll be attending an MTT/SFS performance of Mahler's 5th this week, along with a new piece by Sam Adams (John Adams's son), Drift and Providence, which I'm especially interested in hearing because Adams is currently writing a piece for my son.

Really? That's great! How did that happen? Wait, are you the David A. Ross who was director of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art?

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for your votes, TimH and trung224. Very interesting comments! And really enjoying this current discussion too!

Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw

Thanks for posting! So different! Never heard the end of Beethoven 9 done like either of the two you posted. Thrilling!

Really? That's great! How did that happen? Wait, are you the David A. Ross who was director of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art?

Certainly, that's great! Please tell us more, Dave!

[DavidRoss]

Really? That's great! How did that happen? Wait, are you the David A. Ross who was director of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art?

Nope, I'm not he...but was a member of SFMoMA for years when I lived by the Bay. (Does that count? )

My son is a 7-string classical guitarist whose group, the Mobius Trio, specializes in new, contemporary music. They're just finishing their first recording, Last Light, and Sam Adams is one of the composers working on pieces for them for next season. You can check out some of their work here: http://www.youtube.com/user/mobiustrio

[Lisztianwagner]

Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw

Quite right, two completely different ends of Beethoven No.9! I'm not very surprised that Furtwängler's interpretation is so fast in the finale, his 1937 recording has the same crazy pace.

[mc ukrneal]

Excessive ritardando or accelerando in a phrase or a mere moment of phrase to highlight it.

Ah. I understand now. I figured it would be something simple like this.

Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw

Both pretty horrible in my opinion.

[Sergeant Rock]

But now that I know there is a reference in the music, I don't feel it really adds all that much.

In the German version of the round, the lyrics can have a ssinister bent if your imagination works that way....and we know Mahler's did.

Bruder Jakob, Bruder Jakob (or Martin, in Austria)
Schläfst du noch? Schläfst du noch?
Hörst du nicht die Glocken, Hörst du nicht die Glocken?
Ding, dang, dong, Ding, dang, dong.

Why is he still "sleeping" and why can't he hear the bells? The tune, rendered in the minor, turned into a lugubrious march, gives us the answer.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

Quite right, two completely different ends of Beethoven No.9!

(And both of them lousy.)

Don't know why Furtwängler was in such a hurry. Serious bombing of Berlin didn't start until late '43. (Does anyone else wonder whether he grasped the irony of playing Beethoven's ode to the brotherhood of man at that time and place?)

[Lisztianwagner]

(And both of them lousy.)

Don't know why Furtwängler was in such a hurry. Serious bombing of Berlin didn't start until late '43.

Yes, although the Furtwängler is very good as a whole.
I don't think it was because of the war; if you listen to his 37' recording, he chose the same tempo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo

[Sergeant Rock]

Yes, although the Furtwängler is very good as a whole.
I don't think it was because of the war; if you listen to his 37' recording, he chose the same tempo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo

I've always thought the end of the famous '51 Bayreuth Ninth was a shambles--but this one...insane! 

Sarge

[zauberflöte]

I've always thought the end of the famous '51 Bayreuth Ninth was a shambles--but this one...insane! 

Sarge

What always gets to me in the '51 recording is how the slow-as-molasses tempo in the Adagio causes the orchestra to lose the musical line (or at least barely hold it together).