The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[Bogey]

Yes, I guess I should have put the comments into perspective. It was taken from a discussion of Furtwangler's 9ths, so when they say "slowest of all" and "best orchestral playing," they mean of Furtwangler's recorded performances, not of everyone's. 

Understood, but then "perhaps" is still necessary, no?

[George]

Yesterday I was able to finally sit and give a proper listen to Beethoven Symphony No. 9 Furtwängler/Philharmonia Orchestra (Lucerene 8/22/'54-Tahra), as pictured above that Que finally dug up for me from a shop in the UK (I will post more on this source later as they were incredible with their service).  During my listen I could not but help compare it to the the 9th from March of 1942 on the Music and Arts label (pictured below).

Here is my nutshell conclusion.  The '54 has some of the most incredible sound for a recording of its age that I have ever heard.  The clarity was almost too good to believe at times.  In fact, I am putting it on  its own "island" list when I discuss future historic transfers.  I might even go as far and as denoting it as my "bridge" cd between old historic recordings and modern recordings when it comes to sound.  In short, I have heard nothing like it.  However, that does not give one the freedom to ignore the '42 recording.  My main reasoning here is that I find the '54 lacks the drive and passion (and choral performance) that the '42 has to offer.  Though still very well performed, it did not blow me away like the '42.  So, my conclusion is that one should own both.....and IMO there is nothing wrong with having one too many 9ths on the shelf.   

I agree that the sound (especially for Furtwangler) is excellent here. I also agree with Que that this is a more introverted performance, one that works especially well in the slow movement. Usually this work (in most conductors hands) knocks me over with its power and dynamics, lessening my overall enjoyment of the work. However, this one made for a perfect choice this Sunday morning. Here there is a tenderness and finish in the playing that resulted in a gorgeous sense of overall serenity. His tempos are chosen and handled so well that at no time was I thinking (I would like to hear this a bit slower or faster). The singing in the finale is splendidly performed and recorded and the theme of joy is conveyed well by the orchestral players as well. With its deep emotional, even spiritual impact - something indeed appropriate for late Beethoven - this is a special performance. One that I will place alongside Karajan's more muscular '63 version and Fricsay's outstanding, more "balanced" performance with the BPO.       

[Bogey]

I agree that the sound (especially for Furtwangler) is excellent here. I also agree with Que that this is a more introverted performance, one that works especially well in the slow movement. Usually this work (in most conductors hands) knocks me over with its power and dynamics, lessening my overall enjoyment of the work. However, this one made for a perfect choice this Sunday morning. Here there is a tenderness and finish in the playing that resulted in a gorgeous sense of overall serenity. His tempos are chosen and handled so well that at no time was I thinking (I would like to hear this a bit slower or faster). The singing in the finale is splendidly performed and recorded and the theme of joy is conveyed well by the orchestral players as well. With its deep emotional, even spiritual impact - something indeed appropriate for late Beethoven - this is a special performance. One that I will place alongside Karajan's more muscular '63 version and Fricsay's outstanding, more "balanced" performance with the BPO.       

Great review George.  However, I believe the "playing" of the orchestra does not come close for me when throwing it against the '63 ('62 for those that are counting) HvK.  Nor would I compare the playing here in the same company of the '42 Furtwängler, or for that matter when it comes to the choral component, my favorite (that I have heard) the Dohnányi/Cleveland.   But no matter.  What is key here is that: 1. You enjoyed it at the level you did and 2. There are many recordings to choose from for this piece and enough so that I would assume most could find one that takes them to that musical bliss that many of us find when listening to it.  However, with more listens I to may line up behind you in the future on your level of satisfaction.  So for me, my 3 favorite continue to be, and probably in this order:

Dohnányi/Cleveland
Furtwängler/BPO '42
HvK/BPO '63

However, it is very nice having that '54 at fingertips reach. 

[George]

Great review George.  However, I believe the "playing" of the orchestra does not come close for me when throwing it against the '63 ('62 for those that are counting) HvK.  Nor would I compare the playing here in the same company of the '42 Furtwängler, or for that matter when it comes to the choral component, my favorite (that I have heard) the Dohnányi/Cleveland.   

Haven't heard the Dohnanyi, Bill. However, could you agree that the playing is at least somewhat subject to the conductors interpretative vision? When I said the playing was excellent, I meant that it did an excellent job of conveying the conductors interpretation. If Furtwangler was more intense in '42, that could be because he wanted it that way, not because the playing was better.

Another example might be Schnabel and Serkin. Schnabel was not really known for his playing (he made many mistakes), but he seemed to be more about conveying the choas or the soul of Beethoven's music. Serkin, on the other hand, played incredibly well, or rather had incredible technique. Even fans of Schnabel would concede this fact. However, many like Schnabel's playing more than Serkin, not because he could play better (without mistakes, etc) but because they like his vision.

 

[Bogey]

However, could you agree that the playing is at least somewhat subject to the conductors interpretative vision?

Oh, without a doubt.  So slicing it this way, my three favorite interpretative visions at this time of the 9th are as follows:

Dohnányi/Cleveland
Furtwängler/BPO '42
HvK/BPO '63

 

[George]

Oh, without a doubt.  So slicing it this way, my three favorite interpretative visions at this time of the 9th are as follows:

Dohnányi/Cleveland
Furtwängler/BPO '42
HvK/BPO '63

 

I kind of thought that was what you meant, but the former music major in me needed to clarify.

[Que]

BTW - boys (and girls), what about this issue?
(Sorry Bill, only just noticed it....  )



              click for link

Q

[Bogey]

BTW - boys (and girls), what about this issue?
(Sorry Bill, only just noticed it....  )



              click for link

Q

Oh, that looks like a beauty.  The '42 by Tahra would be interesting alone, and I do not have the '51.

[Great Gable]

I have bee trying to get the '54 Lucerne version for a couple of months now (being a recent convert to Furtwangler). Is the one listed above (on the 4 disc set) the only version now available?

[Que]

I have bee trying to get the '54 Lucerne version for a couple of months now (being a recent convert to Furtwangler). Is the one listed above (on the 4 disc set) the only version now available?

So it seems. Firts issue was on a single CD (FURT 1003, pictured before).
Then came a 4 CD with "Legendary Post-War Concerts" (FURT 1067-70, pictured below).
That one was best deal to date IMO, since it also included the best post-war LvB 3rd, 5th and 6th, and the Brahms 1st.


No doubt Tahra will recycle this recording yet again in future!

Q

[Great Gable]

It never fails to amaze me that many of the "greats" of recorded history are often out of print.

[George]

I have bee trying to get the '54 Lucerne version for a couple of months now (being a recent convert to Furtwangler).

Someone posted this as a download on the old forum, but I cannot find it at the moment. 

[Great Gable]

Thanks George but don't worry on my behalf - I'd only be interested in the CD (I have no interest in music files etc)

[Renfield]

BTW - boys (and girls), what about this issue?
(Sorry Bill, only just noticed it....  )



              click for link

Q

After all this recent talk of Beethoven's 9th, I finally gave in and bought this (despite having all three 9ths already, though two of them in the "other" re-masterings). I'll post my impressions as soon as I've had the chance to sample it.


From just a brief look into the "package", however, the essay it contains alone is worth a lot: not only does it extensively present Furtwängler's conception of the work, but it comes with a fourth CD of multiple examples and comparisons, both from these three Furtwängler 9ths, and those of Karajan, Toscanini, etc.

In fact, some of the samples don't have the names of the conductor and orchestra deliberately, opting instead for "Conductor's name withheld", or "Famous baroque conductor", when the comparison would prove overwhelmingly against the "antagonist". Some might call this "cheap", but I found it fun enough a concept: especially given how thorough the cross-comparison seems to be.

So all in all, a very interesting issue... And what's more, it almost didn't survive the purchase, as the person in the record store accidentally dropped it! Cue a "smash!" and CDs flying around, an impressive display of stoicism on my part and many apologies from his, and the only disc that was slightly roughed up was that of the cherished Lucerne 9th, which I thankfully already have.

[Renfield]

Right, update - and faster than I expected! From a first brief listen-through of various parts of the symphony, I can definitely assert that what the Tahra re-mastering undoubtedly adds to the "other" two Furtwängler 9ths is sonic substance.

The EMI issue of the Bayreuth 9th seems to have a tiny little more incision than the Tahra, though. Otherwise, the Music & Arts team seem completely outclassed by the "Tahrans" (), in the March 1942 Berlin 9th. Many thanks to Que and the rest, for pushing me towards this "indulgent" (but nonetheless successful) purchase!

Oh, the extra disc too is very illuminating indeed: especially the cross-comparisons are a beautiful idea, superbly implemented. Bravo, Tahra.

[Novi]

Right, update - and faster than I expected! From a first brief listen-through of various parts of the symphony, I can definitely assert that what the Tahra re-mastering undoubtedly adds to the "other" two Furtwängler 9ths is sonic substance.

The EMI issue of the Bayreuth 9th seems to have a tiny little more incision than the Tahra, though. Otherwise, the Music & Arts team seem completely outclassed by the "Tahrans" (), in the March 1942 Berlin 9th. Many thanks to Que and the rest, for pushing me towards this "indulgent" (but nonetheless successful) purchase!

Oh, the extra disc too is very illuminating indeed: especially the cross-comparisons are a beautiful idea, superbly implemented. Bravo, Tahra.

Thanks for the review. You make a very very convincing case for the set, especially as I only have the Lucerne ...

Funds are a bit low at the moment though .

[Great Gable]

Can anyone tell me anything about Furtwangler's Orfeo?

Information I am after - sound quality, performance, speeds

Any comments on the different versions / labels?

Thanks in advance

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gluck-Orfeo-Euridice-Christoph-Willibald/dp/B000ERVJ90/ref=sr_1_3/203-7810774-1775126?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1194894924&sr=1-3

[Que]

My second issue form the recent series of Melodiya's war-time recordings.
I will mainly comment on the transfer of the war-time recording of the 9th, recorded live on the 22th of March 1942. This confirms my impression that Melodiya has superior sources, and - not unimportant - does a terrific job with it this time around! Of this recording I already have what was IMO the best available sound-wise: the issue on Tahra. But Melodiya sweeps the board: the clearest, most natural sound and with more presence and details - complete with squeaking chairs or floor boards and coughing.
And the better sound quality does so much good for the performance! To me it comes across as more mellow and elegant than before.
Note that even this transfer can't take away the deficiences of the original recording, which is not the best of the various war-time recordings: some rough edges in the upper strings and overloading in the last movement.

Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.



Q

[Anne]

My second issue form the recent series of Melodiya's war-time recordings.
I will mainly comment on the transfer of the war-time recording of the 9th, recorded live on the 22th of March 1942. This confirms my impression that Melodiya has superior sources, and - not unimportant - does a terrific job with it this time around! Of this recording I already have what was IMO the best available sound-wise: the issue on Tahra. But Melodiya sweeps the board: the clearest, most natural sound and with more presence and details - complete with squeaking chairs or floor boards and coughing.
And the better sound quality does so much good for the performance! To me it comes across as more mellow and elegant than before.

Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.



Q

Que,

Would you mind giving a link where this Melodyia could be purchased?  I would really appreciate it.

[Que]

Que,

Would you mind giving a link where this Melodyia could be purchased?  I would really appreciate it.

If I remember correctly you are located in the US. The only US source I know is Russian DVD.
For Europeans: for some inexplicable reason it's full price in the UK, while its mid price elsewhere.
The series goes for €12 at jpc.

BTW I did post some highlights of the series earlier.

Q