Romanticism and late-romanticism, its meaning and psychology

[Karl Henning]

Thank you for your kind reply.

A pleasure to take part in the conversation with you.

I don't subscribe to that correlation either. Of course there is no certain, mathematical correspondence between musical tone and meaning. One cannot program a computer to produce sad music, or joyous music, or music that depicts a sea storm. But that sad music, joyous music and sea-storm music do exist is a fact that must be accounted for.

Do we agree with the music director(s) of the movie, Master and Commander, that Vaughan Williams's Fantasia on a Theme of Thos Tallis is sea-storm music, then? : )

Now, the irony of it all is that for all Stravinsky's fierce anti-Romantic outlook he thinks exactly like the Romantics, for he says:

What is this idea of supra-personal and super-real music if not Romanticism gone wild? 

And then there is this:

Here he's really beating hard a strawman.  In vain I try to think of a (Romantic or not) composer who supported that implication. In vain I try to think of a (Romantic or not) composer who proclaimed that his music is the musical incarnation of a transcendental idea. But perhaps you can show me one such Hegel of music and then I will stand corrected.

Points well taken, entirely. Stravinsky was more a bon mot machine, than an essayist. He was a bubbling font of often contradictory and at times quite half-baked remarks.

Viz. The Mousetrap:

True, but here's another question: when you set out to write that piece did you already know it's going to have that connection, or was it something that occurred in the process of writing it?

I do not recall, in the case of that piece, particularly. But depending on the piece of mine, either way, really.

Well, I think outrage is too strong a word. Disagreement would be more appropriate.

You have disagreed, where lesser men readily fume : )

Allow me to be bad (for the sake of... expression ) and say: had Stravinsky said "My own music is essentially powerless to express anything at all" I'd have wholeheartedly agreed: apart from his ballets his music tells me nothing at all and I don't care much for it. 

I'm not sure I believe you, dear fellow. Do you really not care much for the Symphonies d'instruments à vent, the Concerto per due pianoforti or the Symphonie de Psaumes? (I mean, perhap you do not, truly, but it would surprise me.)

[Florestan]

A pleasure to take part in the conversation with you.

Likewise.

Do we agree with the music director(s) of the movie, Master and Commander, that Vaughan Williams's Fantasia on a Theme of Thos Tallis is sea-storm music, then? : )

To my everlasting shame I haven't seen the movie yet. Does the music fits in the context?

Stravinsky was more a bon mot machine, than an essayist. He was a bubbling font of often contradictory and at times quite half-baked remarks.

Exactly. That's what I've been trying to convey by quoting his low opinion of the Ring.

I'm not sure I believe you, dear fellow. Do you really not care much for the Symphonies d'instruments à vent, the Concerto per due pianoforti or the Symphonie de Psaumes? (I mean, perhap you do not, truly, but it would surprise me.)

Well, I have my own bon mots from time to time, n'est-ce pas? 

[Karl Henning]

To my everlasting shame I haven't seen the movie yet. Does the music fits in the context?

We remain, if you please, partners in shame : ) I've only seen the trailer, myself. I admit to mixed feelings about the use of that piece, there.

[Karl Henning]

This is why when I write something the title is something like "Piano Trio, No. 1".   

Music of the late Romantic period is not often on my playlist.  The music strikes me as self indulgent and excessive and to the extent there is a philosophic underpinning to why the music sounds that way, e.g. the composer is overtly trying to express extra-musical messages, I am not simpatico with the entire process.

tempora mutantur

[Florestan]

the composer is overtly trying to express extra-musical messages

You mean Wellington's Victory, right? 

[Gurn Blanston]

You mean Wellington's Victory, right? 

Well, Beethoven was a Romantic.... 

Even in the Classical part of the Classico-Romantic Era, everyone wrote some programmatic items. It's when you only write programmatic items (intentionally excessive verbiage. Make allowances) that it gets old fast. Certainly Classical composers could write programmatic music; what's more programmatic than an opera?? 

[Florestan]

Well, Beethoven was a Romantic.... 

Not sure I can agree, but I do like Wellington's Victory. 

It's when you only write programmatic items (intentionally excessive verbiage. Make allowances) that it gets old fast.

I thought you were a big fan of Harold en Italie... or was it Iphigénie en Tauride?     

[Karl Henning]

Not sure I can agree, but I do like Wellington's Victory. 

There's always one, isn't there? ; )

[Gurn Blanston]

Not sure I can agree, but I do like Wellington's Victory. 

I thought you were a big fan of Harold en Italie... or was it Iphigénie en Tauride?     

Not a big fan of, but I like to hear Harold in Italy on occasion. The viola writing is excellent. However, the difference between enjoying the music and subscribing to the programme gives away the entire thing. And like San, it is the excessiveness of Romantic music that grates on me. Why take 400 bars to say something that Haydn said in 12? 



PS - I was totally joking about Beethoven. He wasn't a Romantic, and I also like WV.

[Karl Henning]

Not a big fan of, but I like to hear Harold in Italy on occasion. The viola writing is excellent. However, the difference between enjoying the music and subscribing to the programme gives away the entire thing. And like San, it is the excessiveness of Romantic music that grates on me. Why take 400 bars to say something that Haydn said in 12? 

But, Gurn . . . that's not what Haydn said! ; )

[Florestan]

the difference between enjoying the music and subscribing to the programme gives away the entire thing.

But you can just ignore the programme completely and simply listen to music. I've never read Les Preludes but Liszt's music on them never fails to impress me.

Why take 400 bars to say something that Haydn said in 12?

By this logic people should have stopped composing after Haydn's death... 

[Sergeant Rock]

Do we agree with the music director(s) of the movie, Master and Commander, that Vaughan Williams's Fantasia on a Theme of Thos Tallis is sea-storm music, then? : )

Except it isn't sea-storm music in the film. The Fantasia underscores the tragic but necessary loss of a popular crewman. The sea, and a command decision, are responsible for the loss. The music isn't about the sea but consequences of the decision...the tragedy.

Now, is the Fantasia music about tragedy? I always suspected it was    ....in any case, it does fit this very emotional scene perfectly.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

But you can just ignore the programme completely and simply listen to music. I've never read Les Preludes but Liszt's music on them never fails to impress me.

By this logic people should have stopped composing after Haydn's death... 

I used to like the music more before I knew that a program even existed. I didn't waste mental faculties trying to figure stuff out, I just sat back and enjoyed.

Don't make me express controversial opinions, please.     

[mc ukrneal]

Not a big fan of, but I like to hear Harold in Italy on occasion. The viola writing is excellent. However, the difference between enjoying the music and subscribing to the programme gives away the entire thing. And like San, it is the excessiveness of Romantic music that grates on me. Why take 400 bars to say something that Haydn said in 12?  :

But sometimes the point is not to be concise, but to take your time to where you want to go. One may, quite fairly, not enjoy that. But what is excessive anyway? I cannot think of a romantic piece where there are excesses. Perhaps an example or two would be useful here.

[Sergeant Rock]

And like San, it is the excessiveness of Romantic music that grates on me. Why take 400 bars to say something that Haydn said in 12? 

Gee, I don't know, Gurn. Why was it necessary for Beethoven to take 75 minutes over his Ninth symphony when Haydn's Ninth only takes 12 minutes?    Why did Beethoven have to be so damned excessive? 

Sarge

[Florestan]

I used to like the music more before I knew that a program even existed. I didn't waste mental faculties trying to figure stuff out, I just sat back and enjoyed.

Do you imply that you lost interest in Romantic music that you used to like just because you found out it had a programme? I could have understood you not liking the music in the first place (actually that's what I thought), but striking it off your list for that particular reason alone puzzles me greatly.

[Florestan]

Gee, I don't know, Gurn. Why was it necessary for Beethoven take 75 minutes over his Ninth symphony when Haydn's Ninth only takes 12 minutes?    Why did Beethoven have to be so damned excessive? 

   

[Karl Henning]

Except it isn't sea-storm music in the film. The Fantasia underscores the tragic but necessary loss of a popular crewman. The sea, and a command decision, are responsible for the loss but the music isn't about the sea but the tragedy.

Now, is the Fantasia music about tragedy? I always suspected it was    ....in any case, it does fit this very emotional scene perfectly.

Sarge

Incidentally, the hymn which Tallis set by that tune is:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.

The hymn as it appears in The English Hymnal as edited by Vaughan Williams is:

I heard the voice of Jesus say,
"Come unto me and rest;
lay down, O weary one, lay down
your head upon my breast."
I came to Jesus as I was,
so weary, worn, and sad;
I found in him a resting place,
and he has made me glad.

I heard the voice of Jesus say,
"Behold, I freely give
the living water; thirsty one,
stoop down and drink and live."
I came to Jesus and I drank
of that life-giving stream;
my thirst was quenched, my soul revived,
and now I live in him.

I heard the voice of Jesus say,
"I am this dark world's light;
look unto me; your morn shall rise
and all your day be bright."
I looked to Jesus and I found
in him my star, my sun;
and in that light of life I'll walk
till traveling days are done.

As so very much music, its emotional resonance is widely polyvalent : )

[Sergeant Rock]

The hymn as it appears in The English Hymnal as edited by Vaughan Williams is:

I knew the original text of the hymn but didn't know the English Hymnal version. It makes even more sense to me now that they used that music for that particular scene.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

And then there's Wagner.

Oh, don't go there! Stepping on the Sacred Nutsack will only cause trouble....