Virginia Tech Massacre

[Harvested Sorrow]

Especially since, as we have learned, a person with a mental illness and who had been transported to a mental hospital for treatment was cleared to purchase a semi-automatic handgun on the spot.

I haven't heard about this and I know they did a background check so I have my doubts.  Do you have the link that details this?

[head-case]

And of course, pointing out that if it's banned they'll just get it illegally like in any place where it's banned or restrictions are severe doesn't make a difference.  Of course, if we're going to ignore all the widespread issues that could have factored into this and just attempt to use one particular issue as a scapegoat, we're not going to look at the obvious problem with that one idea. 0:)

If guns were generally banned there would not be an enormous legal gun trade from which guns could be illegally diverted.  Of course it would still be possible to obtain a gun illegally, but it would be much more difficult and expensive to obtain a gun.  It is quite plausible to me that if this mentally disturbed person weren't able to walk into a store with a credit card and legally buy a gun on the spot he would have found a less lethal way to manifest his mental disorder.

[head-case]

I haven't heard about this and I know they did a background check so I have my doubts.  Do you have the link that details this?

This is a lead story on the CNN web site.  An exerpt:

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- Cho Seung-Hui was referred to a mental health facility in 2005 after officers responded to accusations he was suicidal and stalked female students, police said Wednesday.

Authorities received no more complaints about the 23-year-old English major until Monday when he killed at least 30 people before taking his own life on the Virginia Tech campus, university police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.

Police first investigated Cho in November 2005 after a student complained about him calling her and contacting her in person, Flinchum said. (Watch how police learned of Cho's troubles Video)

Cho was sent to the university's Office of Judicial Affairs, which handled the complaint, the outcome of which is confidential, university officials said.

"The student declined to press charges and referred to Cho's contact with her as annoying," Flinchum said of the November investigation.

Police investigated him again the following month when a female student complained about instant messages Cho sent her, Flinchum said.

"Again, no threat was made against that student. However, she made a complaint to the Virginia Tech Police Department and asked that Cho have no further contact with her," the chief said.

After police spoke to Cho, they received a call from a student concerned that he might be suicidal.

Officers spoke to Cho "at length" then asked him to see a counselor. He agreed to be evaluated by Access Services, an independent mental health facility in Blacksburg, the chief said.

"A temporary detention order was obtained and Cho was taken to a mental health facility" on December 13, 2005, he said.

A student asking to be identified only as Andy said he was the one who told police that Cho was suicidal. Police "took [Cho] away to the counseling center for a night or two," said the student, who used to room with Cho. (Watch Cho's roommates describe his "crazy" behavior Video)

[MishaK]

I haven't heard about this and I know they did a background check so I have my doubts.  Do you have the link that details this?

They only check for criminal background, not whether someone had treatment from teh campus counseling office. Really, the background checks are a joke. It's much harder to get a bank account opened than to get a gun. See here for more details (NYT requires free registration): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18cnd-virginia.html?hp

[Harvested Sorrow]

If guns were generally banned there would not be an enormous legal gun trade from which guns could be illegally diverted.  Of course it would still be possible to obtain a gun illegally, but it would be much more difficult and expensive to obtain a gun.  It is quite plausible to me that if this mentally disturbed person weren't able to walk into a store with a credit card and legally buy a gun on the spot he would have found a less lethal way to manifest his mental disorder.

This is like claiming a person wouldn't get drugs because they've been banned.  He was planning this out at least a month in advance, so I'm quite sure that if they were banned he would have got one illegally like anyone else who wishes to do such a thing badly enough.  It wasn't just something spontaneous.

[Harvested Sorrow]

They only check for criminal background, not whether someone had treatment from teh campus counseling office. Really, the background checks are a joke. It's much harder to get a bank account opened than to get a gun. See here for more details (NYT requires free registration): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18cnd-virginia.html?hp

Ah.  What a background check entails varies from state to state I suppose, since I know some areas are much more...rigorous to say the least, than that.

[MishaK]

Ah.  What a background check entails varies from state to state I suppose, since I know some areas are much more...rigorous to say the least, than that.

Which makes the whole system really irrelevant since the fifty states cannot police their borders and enforce compliance with local regulations. Anyone can pick up a gun in a place where it is easy to obtani and take it somewhere where it is difficult to get or even banned. Virginia is on the lax side of the spectrum.

[knight66]

Thanks for your replies, I find the concepts alien to me, but I am not out to provoak an argument.

Mike

[MishaK]

This may well be what happened.  However, this would mean he fired several hundred rounds to kill and wound the number he did.  At 10 rounds per magazine (US law for about a decade now) this would mean 20-30 times to stop and fumble for a full magazine or manually load an empty one, replace the magazine and bring the gun back to firing position.  All this while under stress and using a fairly complex piece of equipment, with his intended victims looking for an opportunity to rush him.  It could be just awful luck the whole way around, but again I suspect law enforcement fell down in a profound way and just don't want to have to face their own failure. 

Where do you get the 10 rounds per magazine restriction from? According to this here, the Glock used takes 15-33 rounds.

[mahlertitan]

Thanks for your replies, I find the concepts alien to me, but I am not out to provoak an argument.

Mike

Americans need to have guns, it's part of our culture. When the nation was young, say 2 centuries ago, there weren't adequate police force, or a reliable standing army. Every citizen can only count on himself to protect his family and property, that's why having guns is important. from a traditional point of view, very few people are going to give up this right. You can see that it was important to the frontiersmen and colonists, the right to bear arms was part of the constitution.

[Redbeard]

Where do you get the 10 rounds per magazine restriction from? According to this here, the Glock used takes 15-33 rounds.

This was included in the Assault Weapons Ban passed in the mid 1990s.  I don't know anything about the specific pistol he used, but based on your reference it is very likely that it is one of the many models originally designed around a high capacity magazine that is still sold but civilian versions only come with 10 round magazines.  The guns themselves are unchanged and will function with either type of magazine.  Law enforcement can still buy high capacity magazines and any high capacity magazines already in existence when the law was passed were grandfathered in (referred to as "pre ban" magazines).  I was basing my statement on the tidbit I read that he had very recently purchased the weapon new (of course this may turn out to be incorrect).

Edit:  I just saw something online that suggests the Assault Weapons Ban may have been allowed to sunset a few years ago.  If this is correct he may have been able to purchase high capacity magazines with the Glock.  I'm sure we will be hearing more about this from the gun control lobby groups and politicians since this would of course be their poster child for reintroducing the restriction.

[Redbeard]

Americans need to have guns, it's part of our culture. When the nation was young, say 2 centuries ago, there weren't adequate police force, or a reliable standing army. Every citizen can only count on himself to protect his family and property, that's why having guns is important. from a traditional point of view, very few people are going to give up this right. You can see that it was important to the frontiersmen and colonists, the right to bear arms was part of the constitution.

Put another way, and again in reference to Knight's query:  Those in favor of stricter gun control see the VA Tech massacre as confirmation of the need for stricter gun laws.  Those in favor of the right to keep and bear arms see the same incident as confirmation that law abiding civilians can't rely on the police to save them in their greatest moment of need.

[MishaK]

This was included in the Assault Weapons Ban passed in the mid 1990s.

Didn't that expire in 2004?

[Redbeard]

Didn't that expire in 2004?

You beat me to it!  I was just editing my post above.  I think you may be correct.

[mahlertitan]

This was included in the Assault Weapons Ban passed in the mid 1990s.  I don't know anything about the specific pistol he used, but based on your reference it is very likely that it is one of the many models originally designed around a high capacity magazine that is still sold but civilian versions only come with 10 round magazines.  The guns themselves are unchanged and will function with either type of magazine.  Law enforcement can still buy high capacity magazines and any high capacity magazines already in existence when the law was passed were grandfathered in (referred to as "pre ban" magazines).  I was basing my statement on the tidbit I read that he had very recently purchased the weapon new (of course this may turn out to be incorrect).

geez, read the article on wikipedia.

[head-case]

Put another way, and again in reference to Knight's query:  Those in favor of stricter gun control see the VA Tech massacre as confirmation of the need for stricter gun laws.  Those in favor of the right to keep and bear arms see the same incident as confirmation that law abiding civilians can't rely on the police to save them in their greatest moment of need.

Right, if everyone in the building was carrying a gun there would have been a wild-west style shootout when the maniac entered the first classroom and he wouldn't have been able to take out 32 people before he was gunned down by a cheerleader packing a .357 magnum.  That makes a lot of sense to the average gun owner.  But if everyone was walking around campus with a gun how many people would be shot because they stole somebody's parking space or was seen making time with someone's girlfriend?

[MishaK]

More importantly, if you're one of the people in the classroom and you missed the beginning of the altercation and you suddenly see two or more people shooting, how can you tell who is the bad guy? Whom do you shoot?

[Don]

Aren't you scared of people with guns?

Only if it's my wife.

[head-case]

More importantly, if you're one of the people in the classroom and you missed the beginning of the altercation and you suddenly see two or more people shooting, how can you tell who is the bad guy? Whom do you shoot?

Shoot'em both and let God sort them out.

[Harvested Sorrow]

But if everyone was walking around campus with a gun how many people would be shot because they stole somebody's parking space or was seen making time with someone's girlfriend?

When this sort of thing occurs in the world outside of a college it is an isolated event.  We have no reason to believe it would magically occur more often on college campus when those same students don't go shooting people for stealing their parking space in a mall parking lot (or something like that) or for catching someone with their girlfriend off campus.