Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, some of us sexagenarians have embraced streaming audio.

Well, Texans are known for their mastery in every situation.  I am ill equipped for streaming, at least of the data sort. 

[Sergeant Rock]

I think Jens has enough knowledge of and affinity for PI to not be distracted by gut vs metal string.

So do I. I love the sound of the Mosaiques, Apponyi, Schuppanzigh, L'Archibudelli. I have no problem with PI quartets in general. The Festestics, though, I find quite grating...and, at least in the op.50, quite boring.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

So do I. I love the sound of the Mosaiques, Apponyi, Schuppanzigh, L'Archibudelli. I have no problem with PI quartets in general. The Festestics, though, I find quite grating...and, at least in the op.50, quite boring.

Sarge

Along those same lines, I have fortepiano/pianoforte recordings of the same works, some of which I'd wager you would love and some of which I'd wager you wouldn't. How does this differ? This is why I don't say specifically that any particular person has any particular issues. You never know what someone will like and what they won't.  It is only a question of personal preference. And as I said earlier, my only source of irritation with anyone expressing his/her preference is when the blame for not liking something is put off as 'they can't play' or something on those lines. If one just says 'that doesn't suit me at all' that is sufficient unto the day, IMO.   

[Geo Dude]

IMO, they don't have any problem of intonation. Jens and the people who have denounced their "poor intonation" simply dislike the tone and color of their violins, not sufficiently "steely", as the sound produced by metal strings. So, I believe there isn't a problem of poor intonation or amateurish approach (an old objection regarding HIP ensembles in 70s and early 80s), but a fundamental disagreement about the concept managed by this ensemble and the palette of colors created by them, which tends towards a homogeneous conversational tone more than a discourse more or less conducted by the first violin.

In short, if the issue is the "poor intonation" the answer will be exactly the same about every volume recorded by the Festetics because it's a problem of musical concept.

I recall liking their Op. 9 so my reaction to their 50 surprised me; maybe I'll give it another try and see if it was just the mood I was in or something.  I don't tend to have problems with gut strings (I love period strings, in fact), so I don't think I was reacting to that, though.

EDIT:  Curious about the Tatrai Quartet, but unable to find any samples on Amazon, I headed to YouTube.  I found Opps. 33 and 76 in complete form and several other quartets.  That place is officially the King of Samples.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

IMO, they don't have any problem of intonation. Jens and the people who have denounced their "poor intonation" simply dislike the tone and color of their violins, not sufficiently "steely", as the sound produced by metal strings.

I never implied such a thing. I even took pains to clarify in my post:

....And the fact that they're PI doesn't factor into the equation at all.

Anyway, you make no bones about your dislike for Minkowski. What's the difference between that and my dislike for the QF?

[Wakefield]

I never implied such a thing. I even took pains to clarify in my post:

Anyway, you make no bones about your dislike for Minkowski. What's the difference between that and my dislike for the QF?

Believe on me if I say I didn't write my previous message as a response to any of your messages. I'm aware you wrote a message in the "Listening Thread", but it's all. This discussion already has some years, for instance, when I posted in 2009 that the Festetics cycle would be completed and reissued, when Arcana changed of owner after an auction in France:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.120

Then we had a long discussion about the merit of the Festetics, including at some point the "amateurish" thing and other "features" revived these days.

I even recall I posted one movement from the Op. 9 by the Festectics and the London Haydn Quartet, respectively, and the opinions were divided:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=7218363-0da

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=52b854a

Regarding your preference for Minkowski, naturally I don't have any problem at all. My own quibbles are merely interpretative because I think he hasn't any sensibility towards Haydn's music, so he doesn't understand anything about irony, subtleties, unexpected but natural changes of course in the music, etc. IMO, his Haydn is a thing quite straightforward and sometimes even vulgar. His band plays period instruments, but I don't share any of his interpretative decisions. That's all folks.     

[Wakefield]

Curious about the Tatrai Quartet, but unable to find any samples on Amazon, I headed to YouTube.  I found Opps. 33 and 76 in complete form and several other quartets.  That place is officially the King of Samples.

Did you like what you listened to, Geo? 

[Gurn Blanston]

Did you like what you listened to, Geo? 

My question too. I know you like them, Gordo, and you know I am 'not so much' (thought their Op 50 was good though). Curious about what others think too. 

[Wakefield]

My question too. I know you like them, Gordo, and you know I am 'not so much' (thought their Op 50 was good though). Curious about what others think too. 

Even our Haydinisto in chief can make mistakes sometimes.   

[Gurn Blanston]

Even our Haydinisto in chief can make mistakes sometimes.   

What, you don't think their Op 50 is good?   

Well, if I am being accused of being too discriminating, it will certainly be the first time for that!  I am giving up my virginity on that score, finally!

[Wakefield]

What, you don't think their Op 50 is good?   

I just have a foggy, but favorable memory of their interpretation in the Op. 50.

BTW, I feel that everyday I'm more skeptic of the benefits of comparative listening. If it's not to my taste, I know almost immediately. If it is, the general picture seems more important than comparisons movement by movement.

[Geo Dude]

Generally any movement to movement comparative listening I do is to get a feel for a recording of music that I'm picky about and find which interpretation I prefer before I buy it.  Like others I do tend to realize quickly which contenders will not make the cut.  That said, I do tend to do work to work (as opposed to movement to movement) comparative listening when I have more than one interpretation in my collection and find that it has produces the sort of benefits Mandryka brought up.

As for the Tatrai, I listened to part of their set of Op. 50 and decided that it wasn't for me.  A solid performance to be sure, but I was not fond of the tone (mind you, I am NOT suggesting intonation problems, just a difference in preference) and I found it a bit too reserved, lacking a certain something that Haydn requires.  The sound is also a bit distant for my taste, but that's not their fault and it could also have a lot to do with the fact that I'm listening to a YouTube video rather than a CD.

Speaking of Haydn and reserved performances, I must admit that it has taken a while for me to really begin to get into this disc that Gurn recommended some time back:

[asin]B002DYLU0A[/asin]

The performances are quite reserved, in particular for Haydn, and don't have the same verve or life that this disc of Michael Haydn and Mozart's duos by Podger and Rogers does, for example.  For a long time it seemed a bit lethargic, in particular for a period instrument performance, but after about six or seven listens it's really started to win me over as an 'evening' disc due to the players' beautiful tone and especially their attention to the little details within the music.  Recommended, but you may want to speak to the Lord of Haydnia about an alternative interpretation (ideally in the original violin/viola instrumentation) to pair it with.

[Gurn Blanston]

As for the Tatrai, I listened to part of their set of Op. 50 and decided that it wasn't for me.  A solid performance to be sure, but I was not fond of the tone (mind you, I am NOT suggesting intonation problems, just a difference in preference) and I found it a bit too reserved, lacking a certain something that Haydn requires.  The sound is also a bit distant for my taste, but that's not their fault and it could also have a lot to do with the fact that I'm listening to a YouTube video rather than a CD.

That's the way I felt about their Op 76, one of the few disks I have ever sold!

Speaking of Haydn and reserved performances, I must admit that it has taken a while for me to really begin to get into this disc that Gurn recommended some time back:

[asin]B002DYLU0A[/asin]

The performances are quite reserved, in particular for Haydn, and don't have the same verve or life that this disc of Michael Haydn and Mozart's duos by Podger and Rogers does, for example.  For a long time it seemed a bit lethargic, in particular for a period instrument performance, but after about six or seven listens it's really started to win me over as an 'evening' disc due to the players' beautiful tone and especially their attention to the little details within the music.  Recommended, but you may want to speak to the Lord of Haydnia about an alternative interpretation (ideally in the original violin/viola instrumentation) to pair it with.

I honestly feel that the rather introverted and calm and relaxing way this disk plays out is exactly the way this music is supposed to feel, especially if you have listened to a lot of baryton trios (which these works came right in the middle of). They have much the same outlook. I came to them from a beautiful version for cello and violin;



which, if anything, is even more contemplative. That arrangement is not by Haydn, BTW.

Another version to consider, if modern instruments don't disturb your inner harmony, is this one, which I think is quite nice;



Steck and Goosses get the lion's share of airplay from me, but I like both of the others too. The cello version, especially has beautifully resonant cello.

[Karl Henning]

... one of the few disks I have ever sold!

Well, this is a day full of surprises! : )

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, this is a day full of surprises! : )

It even surprises me! 

[Geo Dude]

Fair enough, Gurn.  It's just not what one expects if they're not familiar with Haydn from that period.  I do have a disc of baryton trios I should dig out...

In any case, are you familiar with this recording?

[asin]B002OR187Q[/asin]

For that matter, this looks interesting, too:

[asin]B002ED6VNG[/asin]

[Wakefield]

As for the Tatrai, I listened to part of their set of Op. 50 and decided that it wasn't for me.  A solid performance to be sure, but I was not fond of the tone (mind you, I am NOT suggesting intonation problems, just a difference in preference) and I found it a bit too reserved, lacking a certain something that Haydn requires.  The sound is also a bit distant for my taste, but that's not their fault and it could also have a lot to do with the fact that I'm listening to a YouTube video rather than a CD.

After the previous conversation, this afternoon I was listening to their "Prussian Quatets" and my impressions were: 

Sound quality: Quite good and immediate for a 1977 recording.

Performance: Sterner than playful, a sort of proto-HIP approach. A dark, not excessively bright tone on the part of the violins. Nice contribution of the cello. I frequently think these Hungarians conserved better some musical traditions than other parts of Europe.

[Wakefield]

[asin]B002OR187Q[/asin]

A recent release of this repertory:

These unique works -- the only ones for violin and viola in Haydn's oeuvre -- are thought to have been written in the late 1760s or early 1770s, the period during which the composer was employed at the Esterházy court. Little is known about the circumstances of their composition, but most of Haydn's works for violin at this time were intended for the leader of the court chapel, Luigi Tomasini. The pieces certainly tend towards being solo compositions for the violin, which is accorded the bulk of the melodic interest, with an obbligato viola part providing the harmonic support.

Accalimed violinist Federico Guglielmo studied at the Conservatorio Benedetto Marcello in Venice, later specialising in Baroque and Classical violin repertoire, and has won prizes in numerous international competitions. In this recording he plays alongside Massimo Piva, a past principal violist of Europa Galante and the Orchestra di Padova e del Veneto.

Other information:
- A rare combination, violin and viola, but one that challenges the genius of Haydn: his sonatas for this duo are treasures of invention and wit in perfect Viennese style.
- Haydn probably wrote these sonatas during his residency at the Esterhazy court, for the Kapellmeister of the orchestra, Luigi Tomasini, apparently a virtuoso on his instrument, judging from the demanding violin part, the viola supplying the necessary harmonic funding.
- Played by two of Italy's best known violinists in the field of early music: Federico Guglielmo (with numerous recordings under his name, solo and with his ensemble Arte del'Arco) and Massimo Piva, first violist of Europa Galante.
- Includes notes on the music and artist biographies.

http://www.youtube.com/v/UbXzTT4BrRc

[Gurn Blanston]

Fair enough, Gurn.  It's just not what one expects if they're not familiar with Haydn from that period.  I do have a disc of baryton trios I should dig out...

In any case, are you familiar with this recording?

[asin]B002OR187Q[/asin]

For that matter, this looks interesting, too:

[asin]B002ED6VNG[/asin]

As an oddity, that ranks high. Despite the picture of the Hungaroton disk (which I don't have), that ASIN etc is the one for the Steck disk, as you note in the details where it says it is on Accent. I was certainly curious when I clicked on the link and it said that I bought it already in 2009!!

The "sonatas for fortepiano & violin" is an interesting disk. here are 3 short sonatas that are claimed to be Haydn's, but with no substantive evidence to support it. Nice works though. The other 2 works on there are piano trios that were published as trios in London, but published the same year as sonatas in Vienna. Apparently Haydn went either way with them. They are nicely performed and present an interesting, possibly authentic alternative.

[Gurn Blanston]

A recent release of this repertory:




http://www.youtube.com/v/UbXzTT4BrRc

I shall have that as soon as possible. An intriguing idea; Italian style Haydn.   Thanks for the pointer.