Why didn't Karajan do a complete Mahler set...?

[Bonehelm]

He's a professional musician, and he's obviously a highly intelligent person with a very good education (musical and otherwise), as well. He puts two and two together, and he analyses the information he does have in a coherent way.

(Of course, I trust M forever will correct any oversight I might have made, in the above guess.)

There are books about Karajan, by the way! In fact, I'm currently reading Richard Osborne's biography of the aforementioned, myself. And it's quite a good book, being read in tandem with three or four others as it currently is, by personal "quirk".

That, or he just copied and pasted that from some online dictionary.


Of course, I'm kidding.

[Lilas Pastia]

I see. Apparently I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the fact that he didn't conduct these choral works indicated to you a lack of ability in that area. I think he was actually very good in the way he worked with choirs.

With good reason, I now realise. I checked the meaning of 'strong suit' and it's not what I meant. I wanted to convey the sense of selective inclination, not lack of ability.

[greg]

lol, i shoulda reread the first sentence with the word "biography" 

[M forever]

Just for the record, I am not a professional musician anymore. That was in a former life, a long time ago, an important phase in my life that I woulnd't want to miss, but I now excel in another professional area  0:)

Anyway, the Osborne biography is indeed an excellent book, probably the best about HvK, certainly the most detailed (it's a really heavy volume!). It appears to me to be very well researched and generally reliable. Osborne also knew Karajan personally. He has interviewed him on several occasions (some of the interviews are in a former book by him, "Conversations with von Karajan"). It also contains a lot of interesting and balanced information about the times in which HvK lived and worked. Osborne paints a broad picture of the events, the cultural and political environment in Austria and Germany during the first half of the century, so the reader can get a good feeling for HvK's background, what it was like to live and work there during those times, and also addresses the questions about HvK's relationship to the NS regime in great detail.

My own comments here about HvK and Mahler are partially what I gathered from a number of sources, too many to name just a few. If you come from the cultural environment in which all this happened and if you are interested in these subjects, you basically learn many things about all that over many years, that doesn't just come from reading one or two books or a few CD booklets. Partially, my comments are my own interpretation. That part is based on my own perception and understanding of Mahler's place and role in the complex cultural spectrum of the place I come from, and the relationship some people may have had to the music in earlier decades.

[RebLem]

I take the fact that Karajan didn't record a complete Mahler cycle as evidence that God still works miracles.

[BorisG]

I take the fact that Karajan didn't record a complete Mahler cycle as evidence that God still works miracles.

Would you say that about Barbirolli also?

[mahlertitan]

Would you say that about Barbirolli also?

yes, i would.

[M forever]

Man, it is so violently sickening to see complete ignoramuses like these make such statements about highly accomplished muscians such as Barbirolli and Karajan.

I thought it had gotten a little better, but this is really just a forum for primitive, completely ignorant and respectless people.

People like you are the scum of the earth. I feel physically tainted by being in your virtual presence.

I am off again.

[knight66]

I have never understood this conceit that Barbirolli was a poor conductor. I get the impression that is all about taking a stance and ignoring the evidence.

But guys......now see what you've done.

Mike

[uffeviking]

I take the fact that Karajan didn't record a complete Mahler cycle as evidence that God still works miracles.

You overlooked a long list of gifted conductors who also have benefited from god's miracles and never got around to doing a Mahler cycle. Or is your mental capacity so limited capable only to retain the name of one or two conductors?

[Renfield]

Though I don't feel especially obliged to champion M forever's presence here (welcome as it definitely is, from my part), I'll agree that considering Karajan and Barbirolli worthless Mahler interpreters, which we were "graced" not to have a complete cycle from, is weak.

Both of them were conductors with a reputation for excellence, both of them were outstanding proponents of the composers and compositions they did champion, and neither of them was a "random" addition to the long list of people who have recorded Mahler.

Now, I generally have a stance of "live and let live", in terms of even opinions that, as M forever implied with somewhat stronger terminology, are so ill-considered; but this is a bit too much, really.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I am a bit surprised at the animosity some here have for Karajan and Barbirolli's Mahler. Forget Barbirolli for a moment, but Karajan's recordings of the 5th, 6th and 9th (especially the later account) are some of my favorite readings of these works. They are not the most spontaneous readings out there. But they are rehearsed, extremely detail, superbly contrasted dynamically and show great pacing and organization. In HVK's hands these don't appear to the the monstrous, long-winded scores that some make them out to be but symphonies that are superbly constructed structurally. Of course you do not get the ravishingly shocking revelation of a Bernstein for example but if you know these works well Karajan makes you reassess these works.

In short I think no Mahler discography would really be complete without HVK's readings. And I am not really a HVK fan, but I think he is a great Mahler conductor.

[Lilas Pastia]

I take RebLem's use of the   icon as an indication of playing the devil's advocate, rib-elbowing us or otherwise provocatively stating his dislike of these conductor's Mahler.

I really don't see why there should be such an outlandish reaction from MForever or public expressions of outrage as what I read here. Should I, too, feel "physically tainted" by their virtual presence? This forum would become a no man's land in no time... Come on, guys, come to your senses...