Blind Comparison: Brahms 2

[TheGSMoeller]

I really worked at it, but I have to admit that it's too hard for me. I could manage discerning my top two (A4, A5, in that order) from my least preferred (A1), but I found it simply too tough to explain my opinion (A4 just picks it up so meaningfully with that great sound in the bass, cello, wood & brass) about all the recordings. I tried, looking at the score (btw, I found the piascore app for ipad to be really useful (free scores allowing annotations): http://piascore.com). But although I did find, for instance, a certain sudden decrease in tempo (e.g. A3 and A5) around bars 40-43 that weren't indicated in the score, I'd be at a loss to explain why exactly I find that to be (dis)pleasing (in A3 I didn't, and in A5 I did like it)  Not to mention that I wouldn't know how to consistently evaluate such moments across all 8 samples.
I guess I'm just starting to learn about comparative listening, and I'll have to restrict myself for a while to comparing two or three recordings max at a time in order not to get lost.
I'd totally understand if you wouldn't include my 'votes', and I'm really curious to find out who the performers of A4 and A5 are.
Thanks for letting me in on this, cheers
Pim
A4-A5 ........ A1

I don't see any reason why Daniel couldn't factor in your votes, perhaps giving extra points for A4 and A5, then a single point for the rest with zero for A1. Since you did participate it should be added somehow. 
Any other suggestions?

[Sergeant Rock]

The results so far (I'll edit this as more votes come in):


Round 1 Group A

NorthNYMark  mc urkrneal  Brian  Pim  Sgt Rock
       A2                A4           A7    A4      A5
       A1                A8           A4    A5      A2
       A5                A2           A2              A6
       A4                A6           A1              A7
       A8                A7           A5              A1
       A7                A5           A6              A4
       A3                A1           A3              A8
       A6                A3           A8    A1      A3


Round 1 Group B

GSMoeller  Sgt Rock  Chambernut  Brian  Que  Pat B
    B4              B1             B4          B1    B7     B7
    B7              B3             B6          B3    B1     B2
    B2              B5             B8          B4    B6     B1
    B6              B4             B2          B7    B5     B6
    B8              B6             B3          B8    B3     B8
    B1              B2             B7          B2    B8     B4
    B3              B7             B5          B5    B4     B3
    B5              B8             B1          B6    B2     B5


Round 1 Group C

AMW  Londonrich  TimH  Beale  GSMoeller  liuzerus87  NorthNYMark
  C7          C2         C3     C3        C4            C8              C4
  C8          C7         C8     C6        C7            C1              C5
  C2          C1         C1     C1        C3            C3              C1
  C5          C4         C4     C8        C6            C5              C7
  C1          C8         C6     C4        C1            C6              C3
  C6          C6         C2     C2        C8            C4              C8
  C3          C3         C7     C5        C5            C2              C2
  C4          C5         C5     C7        C2            C7              C6

[TheGSMoeller]

Wow, B1 is the most hated and loved of that group.

[Sergeant Rock]

Wow, B1 is the most hated and loved of that group.

That's what makes these comparisons so fun 

Sarge

[Madiel]

I'm intrigued that most people aren't giving scores out of 10 this time. It means that you only have a 'pure' ranking to work with, and no indication whether, say, 3rd and 4th choice were virtually the same or there was a marked gap.

It also creates the problem illustrated by Pim: a feeling that you have to separate out all those ones that were somewhere near the middle, instead of giving them the same score to indicate they were about the same.

[amw]

I'm intrigued that most people aren't giving scores out of 10 this time. It means that you only have a 'pure' ranking to work with, and no indication whether, say, 3rd and 4th choice were virtually the same or there was a marked gap.

It also creates the problem illustrated by Pim: a feeling that you have to separate out all those ones that were somewhere near the middle, instead of giving them the same score to indicate they were about the same.

Well, this seems to be holding true for many of the voters—

Actually, in this case I found it like a series of blind dates where everyone seemed nice enough, but there was no one I was terribly excited about seeing again.

I just gave all the ones that inspired strong feelings of neutrality in me 6/10—I suggest Pim does the same :>

(On reflection I'm also going to downgrade C7 to an 8/10. I compared it to the recording I have which is a definite 9/10 and deserves to be a full point ahead, and C7's not that much better than C8 apart from sound quality.)

[Beale]

Sorry for the lateness. Here are my votes for group C. I've been listening to this set for quite some time. There was one piece that always caught my attention, and that was C3. I found it stirring and uplifting, but at the time it felt 'just right' in the way I liked Brahms music. At the opposite end I just couldn't bring myself to love C7. It sounded too 'autumnal' for me. I am not happy that I might have let others down who rated C7 so highly and with detailed justification.

My scoring out of 10 (not that they mean very much)

C3   8.65
C6   7.5
C1   7.43
C8   7.29
C4   7.15
C2   6.93
C5   6.58
C7   5.86

[Que]

And here are the votes from the jury in The Hague, The Netherlands for Group B:

B1) Detailed and finely articulated, slow but nicely paced. Old School, the Kapellmeister way, this might a recording I have in my collection. 8/10

B2) This performance lacks face and energy. Tension slips at the start, then suddenly there is a short resurgence after which it is down hill all the way. I don't like the brass, specifically the horns. Un-Brahmsian. 5/10

B3) The start is promising, a short cough gives away the fact that it is a live recording. Why does he keep slowing down in the first part?? Suddenly something terrible happens with the sound. Pity really. Good orchestra, very nice woodwinds. He doesn't keep up the tension and gets lost. Despite some gorgeous playing this performance is done for me. 6/10

B4) A swifter one, which I like. But instead of building tension like clockwork, the conductor is fiddling with accents making the tension go up and down, makes me dizzy. Up down up down, in your face and out, back and forth, I'm getting sea sick! Annoying, but at times interesting: 6/10. The orchestra isn't so impressive anyway.

B5) An oldy. Which is also quite jittery and also a lot of micromanaging. Toscanini?  Must be.  But at least he has something interesting to tell.. 7/10

B6) The sound is rather strings dominated, weird. The performance is OK, nothing strange, according to the book. But nothing really inspiring either, except for the execution by the orchestra. A bit boring, but nicely played. 7/10

B7) This I liked right away. Fleet but also nicely groovy. Dark timpani. RCO? Ah, beautiful playing, woodwinds, strings.  There is a slight lack of tension a bit into the mvt with accents sounding a bit deliberate, but that is easily forgiven. This must end up highly: 8,5/10

B8) Another mediocre one, not really either here or there. OK, adequate, but not much more: 7/10. (I hope it is Karajan, could be!  ).

So, my ranking would be: B7, B1 (ex aequo), then B6, B5, B3, B8, B4 (in that order), and the line is closed by B2.

Q

[TheGSMoeller]

Group C

C4 - best
C7
C3
C6
C1
C8
C5
C2 - worst

[NorthNYMark]

Group C was tougher for me than with group A, where I found more clear distinctions between the overall feel of each performance, with far greater distances between my favorite and least favorite performances.  I only had the chance for two listens to this group, again over a low-end Compaq laptop (but through high quality headphones).  With no technical knowledge, these are just initial impressions:

C1--very warm, romantic, somewhat melancholy opening--nice presence to the lower strings--first climax seems a bit extreme, almost artificially fast after the buildup, then quickly reverts back to the soft richness--for the second climax I am better prepared, but still feel a bit relieved when the low strings come in to slow things down a bit--overall this has a reserved intensity that I enjoy, aside from the slightly over-emphatic climaxes.

C2--intro feels a bit less lush than C1--when it slows, it slows to a near crawl, and the climax is far slower as well.  Overall this performance feels a bit more measured and classical--less of an undulating, sinuous melodic line--the lower strings sound more veiled, which doesn't help--with the section with the flowing low strings after the second climax, it seems to be getting more interesting, and more like C1-- the lullaby section that closes the clip works better for me than C1's did.  I still think I prefer C1 overall, but C2 seems to develop more feeling toward the end of the clip. On second listen, I go back to my initial impression--while somewhat slow, this version lacks mystery and intensity until the final climax.

C3--had to turn it back down, as it is louder than C2, with a wonderful horn sound--seems to produce a nice emotional contrast between the melancholy woodwinds and lighter, sweeter strings--like C1, the first climax seems a bit overly contrasting, almost staccato--the slowing down seems to go in a less melancholy direction, and the 2nd climax feels a bit more natural, but still too staccato for my tastes--the following low strings seem a bit speedy, as does the closing lullaby--I think I prefer C1, but hard to rank this in comparison to C2, as I preferred the way C3 began, but thought C2 ended up in a better direction.  On second listen, I enjoyed its development a bit more than I did the first time, so will probably rank it slightly above C2.

C4--intro has a less melancholy, more sing-songy quality than the previous versions, which I don't especially like--however, it seems to become a bit more melancholy with the introduction of the strings, though that disappears immediately with the first climax, after which there is a return to light playfulness, but the the tension ramps up appropriately--the second climax is more engaging to me than the first--As it continues to develop, I am getting caught up in this one--it builds intensity in a very effective way, with the final climax truly climactic.   While this seemed to begin in a more light and playful vein, it developed into something more intensely serious sounding--I think it goes to at least second place so far.  Actually, upon second listen, I think I'll elevate it slightly above C1 to first.

C5--nice intro--goes into a particularly darkly colored slow section--the strings seem refreshingly hesitant to sweeten it up too much or too quickly--again I find the first climax a bit too staccato, but the "recovery" feels natural, and less playful than others--overall, the slow sections in this version have a darker quality to me than some of the others, which I like, though the climaxes sound a bit too sharp and severe--the low strings into the lullaby have a nice intensity--I like the way the lullaby dramatically slows.  This sounds like an older recording to me, but I like it, and it just gets better as it goes along--maybe just bumping C1 out of second place after C4 (though all three are pretty close).

C6--the tympani are very prominent in the slow section--unless this is just louder again--it seems to be going for a contrast between heaviness and lightness in the buildup to the second climax, which has a fairly relaxed tempo. The rhythmic string accompaniment to the lower string part seems more prominent, which is interesting, though the lullaby feels more sentimental--overall, this one does not engage me very much, especially on the second listen, and is probably going to last place for now.

C7--a softer recording, has to be turned up--starts with a very somber slow section--even the entrance of the strings seems sad. I enjoy the climax, as it is not overly staccato as some others. The second buildup proceeds with subtlety, with the second climax powerful and somewhat stately--this sounds like a somewhat dark and melancholy interpretation, which I tend to enjoy in Brahms--this is probably in my top 4.  Initially, I put it in the top 2, but it lost a bit of its luster for me on second listening.

C8--With its prominent surface noises, this is clearly a VERY early recording. The intro isn't all that remarkable, but the slow section and gradual buildup has a lot of feeling--but the climax is too over-the-top for my tastes.  As it slows down, I begin to enjoy it again--this conductor knows how to shape a flowing  phrase nicely--but the contrast with the climax again feels overdone to the point of caricature--another one tough to rank, as there are sections I like quite very much, but I find the climaxes distracting (not to mention the very prominent surface noise).  Probably in my bottom three.

Final ranking: C4, C5, C1, C7, C3, C8, C2, C6. (This was very, very tough, and I am less confident in these rankings than in those for Group A--I think the biggest gap to me is between the top and bottom four, with each performance in those two groups being very close in terms of preferences).

[liuzerus87]

A bit late, but my rankings from Group C.  The ranking within each group for me were a bit difficult, but the separations were pretty clear.  Not much to say about the middle group for me.

Very good:

1. C8 - Doesn't sound like Furt to me, but has the same sense of natural unfolding in the pacing and phrasing.  Absolutely fantastic to my ears.

2. C1 - Just really solid, intense, committed Romantic-style playing


Mediocre:

3. C3

4. C5

5. C6


Bottom of the list:

6. C4 - Very clear and fast, typical historically-informed style.  Certainly stood out from the crowd.  The orchestra transparency is impressive, but the musicality is not there for me.6

7. C2 - Uninteresting in the extreme

8. C7 - So unnecessarily mannered, almost leaden.  The pacing and musical choices just don't work for me at all.

[Pat B]

I have some notes and two or three guesses which I may formulate into a post tomorrow. For now, my Group B ballot:

1 B7 (best)
2 B2
3 B1
4 B6
5 B8
6 B4
7 B3
8 B5 (worst)

[amw]

At the opposite end I just couldn't bring myself to love C7. It sounded too 'autumnal' for me. I am not happy that I might have let others down who rated C7 so highly and with detailed justification.

No worries, C7 (along with B1) definitely is turning out to be one of those "love it or hate it" interpretations. Everyone seems to have different tastes in these things. (Although C6 does appear to have been voted "most average" by a landslide )

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you all very much for all of your votes. Will find a way to fit yours in, Pim.

In need of just another vote or two for Group A if anyone who has not already voted for this group has time today or tomorrow?

[Sergeant Rock]

Thank you all very much for all of your votes. Will find a way to fit yours in, Pim.

In need of just another vote or two for Group A if anyone who has not already voted for this group has time today or tomorrow?

I'm doing A this afternoon.

Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

I'm doing A this afternoon.

Sarge

Great! Thanks, Sarge.

[Brian]

Thank you all very much for all of your votes. Will find a way to fit yours in, Pim.

In need of just another vote or two for Group A if anyone who has not already voted for this group has time today or tomorrow?

Count mine twice

Nah, if Sarge agrees with me like he did in Group B, that won't be necessary!

[mc ukrneal]

Count mine twice

Nah, if Sarge agrees with me like he did in Group B, that won't be necessary!

It all depends what he thinks of A8. A4 is in, but you hated A8 and I loved it. In the past, Sarge and I have usually been at opposite ends on opinions. BUT, A8 was an older recording (if memory serves) and he sometimes enjoys those, so it could go either way.

[Pim]

I'm happy to be counted 
I like Chambernut's set of criteria and the different ways of applying them, so I'll try to use some version of that next time (and I'm quite interested in other suggestions along those lines)! Some structure is clearly helpful for me in the initial steps of my comparison journey. Difficult but enjoyable, so with Bruckner's 6th I'd be happy to join in again.
Cheers

[Sergeant Rock]

Count mine twice

Nah, if Sarge agrees with me like he did in Group B, that won't be necessary!

It all depends what he thinks of A8. A4 is in, but you hated A8 and I loved it. In the past, Sarge and I have usually been at opposite ends on opinions. BUT, A8 was an older recording (if memory serves) and he sometimes enjoys those, so it could go either way.

Are you guys trying to influence my vote?    I do accept bribes. PM me 

I'm about to start writing up my results but, damn, this is a tough group to judge. My top two are solid but ranking the rest is proving difficult. I can empathize with Pim. It might come down to a few minor details deciding the numbers.

Sarge