Blind Comparison: Brahms 2

[madaboutmahler]

All Round 2 links sent out now. Happy listening everyone!

Sorry again for the delay, life is so hectic at the moment. Thank you for your patience.

Shall we agree the deadline for the first weekend of April? Can always be extended if needs be.

[amw]

I didn't get a link—if you've got any spares send 'em my way, thanks.

[eleanore-clo]

Hi
Thank you for the help. I finally succeed.
Here are the results.
C8: old record, very slow, it lacks soul and dynamism.
C1: peaceful, serene, a close-knit band, not enough contrast in the long run, however, a kind of melody appears, all in gray
A7: beautiful links, a song without end, sometimes repetitive, almost a joyful end
B6: beautiful strings, a beautiful mystery, conductor takes us for a wonderful walk within brahms's heart, a Swiss lake in automn
1) B6
2) A7
3) C1
4) C8
Best regards
Eleanore-clo

[Sergeant Rock]

I didn't get a link—if you've got any spares send 'em my way, thanks.

I don't know which group Mad has you in, but here's the link to group X https://www.mediafire.com/?6hjjollj6j6m46t


Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

Thanks Sarge for giving amw that link, and to Eleanore-clo for your vote!

Seems like people might need a bit longer than the original deadline which was yesterday! Everyone OK with 2 weeks today?

[Brahmsian]

Thanks Sarge for giving amw that link, and to Eleanore-clo for your vote!

Seems like people might need a bit longer than the original deadline which was yesterday! Everyone OK with 2 weeks today?

Thank you for the extension, Daniel.  I've been so busy lately, and just haven't got around to the round 2 listens yet. 

[madaboutmahler]

Anyone going to be ready to start posting their votes for Round 2 soon??

[Brahmsian]

Hi Daniel, I am bowing out here.  I'm afraid I just haven't had the time.  Will look forward to the results. 

[Pim]

Dear Mad, thanks a lot for preparing this. I had a wonderfully free and confusing afternoon with the set of X-2, listening to this great music, and being at a loss again to explain why I like one contestant so much, and feel almost indifferent to some others. All four were a joy to listen to, but, well, here are the votes of an amateur trying to evaluate:
a5 very good, warm, the phrasing at the beginning is so great, it's just drawing you in, followed by a most wonderful interlude starting with the horns later joined by basoon & hobo, then later also flutes starting around 1.50. Keeping me fascinated throughout, I found this one clearly the best
b4 14:26 violins too smooth for me, too silky, interlude around 16:15 unrecognisable in comparison with a5
b7 25:50 I like the opening, a little bit slow perhaps at the start; interlude 27:30 reasonably done
c3: 38:40 ok, but for me without evoking much feeling, same for the interlude around 40:00

Overall:
a5 >> b7 > b4 > c3

[Beale]

It is school holiday time over here so I would like a few more days if possible. If not my present vote for group Z is C1>B6>C8>A7 (may change upon further review).

EDIT NOTE: I have changed my mind and a new order is given in a post below.

[mc ukrneal]

Just been so busy lately - can I listen over the weekend. I promise to listen!

[TheGSMoeller]

I'll get to it no later than tomorrow evening (Wednesday). Not sure how I skipped this, sorry.

[Brian]

Group X
A5: very, very fond of this slow movement. I seem to have felt "meh" about the first movement, but the slow movement is perfect: gorgeous, well-paced, with universally excellent solo and ensemble playing. It IS slow, like the allegro had been. The clip from the finale is merely very good - probably good enough. 9/10.

B4: The exact opposite: as it was in the first round, this is Speedy Gonzales. Most of it is pretty good, and there's a nice flow without too many sacrifices, but the slow movement's climax is really just too much too quickly. I refuse to accept that. 5/10.

B7: Stiff first phrases, with not especially pretty cello intonation. At the same time I'm aware of limitations in the transfer from CD and the original recording quality. Yeah no - this is metronomic. I marked this recording down as mediocre first time up, and mediocre it mostly remains. Nice clarinets and '60s oboes, though. The finale is acceptable. 6/10.

C3: Okay slow movement, nice and nothing wrong with it but not totally distinguished. The finale clip is excellent, though. I'd say this is second-best, though I suspect that COUGH when Daniel sends me another group COUGH I will find contenders more worthy of being finalists. 7.5/10.

Final ranking: A5, C3, B7, B4.
A5 is the only one that deserves to advance to the finals. The others would be wasting space, although C3 is pretty darn competent (and, I suspect, is NYPO/Lenny based on the forceful sound of the French horns in the finale). The two from group B are not good.

[TheGSMoeller]

Group Z

A7 - 1
C1 - 2
B6 - 3
C8 - 4

[Sergeant Rock]

Group X

1 - A5
2 - C3
3 - B4
4 - B7


Sarge

[Brian]

Group Y

A2: What a strange reading of the slow movement. It's not just that it's fast; it's also rhythmically bouncy in an unexpected way, and the orchestral details sometimes feel like a pop-up book. At first I thought this reading was HIP-influenced. I have mixed feelings and don't know whether this reading is good or not. I do recognize it, though, mostly thanks to my favorite horn section. Flawless finale excerpt in every particular. 7/10.

A4: Cello attack at the start is unsubtle, as are the woodwinds. Evocative horns. I think this recording might simply be louder, as it was in the first round. I guess it's fundamentally pretty good, even if it's sometimes heavy-handed. Finale is just too fast. It starts off good, then the second subject sounds just too bold for my taste. 6/10.

B1: This is more like it, a soft, tender, slow beginning. Impeccably played and conducted all the way through both clips. As good as it gets. 9/10. Belongs with A5 in the finals for sure.

C7: Soft, sweet, delicate, making me like A4 even less than I did before. A marvelous interpretation, but an "alternative" one, with a strong personality. It's not as slow as B1 or A5, but it's subtler than either. There are some failings in terms of clarity/texture. The finale is curiously lacking in energy, except for the timpanist, who appears to be on cocaine. 7.5/10.

Final ranking: B1, C7, A2, A4.

[Beale]

I have reviewed my initial preferences for Group Z and made a small change. My new and final ranking is C1 > B6 > A7 > C8. The top three was really hard to separate.

[Brian]

A7: A chamber orchestra with a wonderful sound, nimble and light yet fully capable of all the expression that's required in the slow movement. I love the presence of the horns. Though I've never heard the recording, this sounds like it should be Mackerras, and I hope so, because I like it. Only the slow movement's climax is lacking. The quick pace is more smoothly handled than the similar tempo in A2. Although I love the bubbly, bouncy finale clip, and the details it affords, the loss of orchestral heft and power is a big sacrifice. 6.5/10.

B6: Pretty standard, pretty good slow movement, though not as good as a couple others I've heard. I really hated the first movement clip and ranked it last, but this is overall just fine, with an exciting finale. OH. I bet it's Alsop, a recording which does have a dull opener and then dramatically improves. Wait no, this orchestra sounds American. Never mind. 7.2/10.

C1: Another one I disliked in early going redeems itself with a totally fine, not-bad slow movement. Attack in the finale is ferocious, a maelstrom of sound, awe-inspiring but also utterly insane. I think I'm willing to hear more of this. 7.5/10.

C8: I remember the sound not being very good. But I didn't remember it being THIS bad. Wow it's distant. But "distant" is the word; the sound is not really bad, it's just like the concert hall is the room next door. You can still get a good idea of just how good and sensitive this performance is, just, from a distance. There is an inflexibility to the tempo: I prefer a little more give and take and a willingness to add a little extra "sauce" for the second subject and climaxes. The finale is very nice, though the refusal to slow up, even slightly, for the second theme is a little disappointing. If anything things seem to be snowballing. Overall this performance is very, very good, but I think its run is over. 7/10.

--

Since I've listened to all of them, I'm going to do a ranking of all of them. They are in order, and in groups.

Essential, gotta be in the finals:
B1
A5
C7
Very interesting takes, could find a home in the finals:
C1
A2
A7
Solid, normal, competently executed, mainstream:
B6
C3
Unacceptable:
C8
A4
B7
B4

[amw]

A5 - Most heartfelt & best sounding of the slow movements in this group (the slower tempo helps); dramatic without melodrama. A bit "late Romantic" for Brahms, conductor possibly more at home in Bruckner or Mahler. I didn't like the finale quite as much, a bit low energy—too "stately". Otherwise I concur with the growing consensus. 8/10

B4 - Wow, this is a really fast adagio. Did the conductor have a plane to catch or was he/she just taking a leaf out of the Toscanini book? It's actually kind of exciting, I can't say I dislike it, though the coordination comes unstuck at times. Finale is slightly manic, which I also sort of like. I'll give it 6.75/10. Weirdly, I'd probably have less patience for a first movement in this mold.

B7 - Interpretation a bit phoned in... orchestra seems bored. Nothing much happening here. Last place by default, 4.5/10.

C3 - A middle-of-the-road but well done slow movement... I wonder how it would match up to A6 or C2. I guess we'll never know now thanks to you philistines. Orchestral playing possibly better than A5, but not as moving. Finale is good, probably better than A5. I think Brian might be right about the identity of the performers (if we're talking about the same recording, it's one I used to have). 7/10

Group X

1 - A5
2 - C3
3 - B4
4 - B7

^ this in other words.

I'm happy to do another group.

[mc ukrneal]

Here are my comments for Group Z:

A7 – Dull in its approach with too much sameness. There is not enough dynamic differentiation in much of it and it lacks depth of color. It is very transparent though. It seems quite distant and never really connects (no fire, no passion).  Unison and precision are excellent. Start of the finale is just so static, so shaping of the music is just lacking. Ranking: 4

B6 – Ah, here it breathes more, so already better stylistically. But here too there is a certain sameness, just not a bad as A7. Playing is of a high quality. This has a more intense start to the finale.  Sometimes a bit too staccato for my liking.  Ranking: 3

C1 – This one has a bit more expression and intensity.  In particular, the dynamics seem more varied. The climaxes are better handled. Finale is most exciting so far with nice pacing and phrasing.  Ranking: 1

C8– Older recording with lots of crackles. Despite that, my heart sings in this clip. They have good balance and the performance breathes (and pulses).   Finale entrance is not quite together and they really let down a stellar slow movement with some unevenness here and there (in unison). On the other hand, it is quite exciting.   Ranking: 2

C8 is the question. Should we penalize a performance for bad sound? I say no. The point of this is not to choose the best recording, but the best performance. And C8 is a wonderful performance negatively impacted by the sonics of the recording. They do the best at maintaining tension throughout the slow movement, but drop the ball in the finale a bit. C1 was also good, but more consistent and thus was placed first.  B6 was ok, but not quite as good as C1. A7 was terrible. I didn't hate them in my first round voting, but I didn't really like them either, so some consistency there I guess.

Final Order (first to last): C1, C8, B6, A7.