Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.   

Yeah, that's a good one. The sense of powerful forces barely under control really comes across well.

BTW I see little mention of Ormandy for the 15th. That's another favorite of mine.

[alkan]

Who has the absolute best sound?

For me, Rattle, although I have only 2 others to compare against (Kondrashin and Roshzdvensky).   However, Rattle's recorded sound is one of the best I have in my entire collection of symphonic music.   And this is not an easy work to record (huge climaxes, big orchestra).   It really adds to the impact of the interpretation and the playing of the orchestra   (one of the best in the world at the time).

[alkan]

Whilst we are on the topic of the 4th Symphony, I'd like to ask a question.    Did Shostakovich have any specific thoughts in mind for the coda?  It starts very quietly, then a huge timpani-led crescendo, dissonances, peroration, explosion, and finally a long, eeiry fadeout.    This music is amongst the most powerful and original that I know, but I often wonder what was going on in Shostakovich's head and what he is trying to communicate.     Does anyone know (or have any opinions)?

[Karl Henning]

Who are you liking in the 4th lately? There are at least 5 different Olympian Recordings to choose from at this point- I'm leaning towards Chung for the faster 'Moderato'... but who doesn't want to get all, haha!!?? Who has the absolute best sound?

Big fan of Maksim Dmitriyevich [in Russian there is no "x," so that sound is representing by the two constituent consonants, so they spell the name Aleksandr, e.g.], Petrenko, and Haitink/Chicago.  Rattle is good, too, mind you.  These all sound splendid.

[Karl Henning]

For me, Rattle, although I have only 2 others to compare against (Kondrashin and Roshzdvensky).

This comparison is true.

[Karl Henning]

Whilst we are on the topic of the 4th Symphony, I'd like to ask a question.    Did Shostakovich have any specific thoughts in mind for the coda?  It starts very quietly, then a huge timpani-led crescendo, dissonances, peroration, explosion, and finally a long, eeiry fadeout.    This music is amongst the most powerful and original that I know, but I often wonder what was going on in Shostakovich's head and what he is trying to communicate.     Does anyone know (or have any opinions)?

No one knows, many have opinions 

Seriously, Shostakovich (partly by natural inclination, partly because of the 'negative reinforcement' of public and powerful repercussions) scarcely ever offered "personal thoughts" on what the music "depicted."

[Mirror Image]

Big fan of Maksim Dmitriyevich [in Russian there is no "x," so that sound is representing by the two constituent consonants, so they spell the name Aleksandr, e.g.], Petrenko, and Haitink/Chicago.  Rattle is good, too, mind you.  These all sound splendid.

I believe it was you, Karl, who turned me onto Previn's 4th on EMI. That was a great account as well.

[snyprrr]

Symphonies 1 & 9

Haintink/Decca
Rostropovich/Teldec

What's the coin-toss here? If Slava is firing on all cylinders, then maybe he brings in this combination on time (with maybe some surreal moments to boot?); if not, I guess Haitink's ever-professionalism wins out? If the Teldec sound is marginally better than the Decca, that might matter too (though I know that Decca recording is quite fine indeed- it's strictly Decca vs. Teldec engineers here). Barshai also has a previous effort with this combination...

[André]

Barshai's previous effort (with the Vancouver Symphony) suffers from distant, anonymous sound. Clean and clear enough, but not as good as that of the Cologne version.

[snyprrr]

Barshai's previous effort (with the Vancouver Symphony) suffers from distant, anonymous sound. Clean and clear enough, but not as good as that of the Cologne version.

check

[snyprrr]

I really haven't given Ashkenazy's 15th much of a listen. I may heard it (once), but it's been probably four years ago whenever I bought his cycle. I don't find him to be that compelling of a Shostakovich interpreter. His Prokofiev is quite good and his Rachmaninov is some of the best around but when it came to Shostakovich, I find there's just something missing in his cycle. I feel the same way about Kitajenko's cycle on Capriccio. For me, it's still hard to shake my memory of Kondrashin's Dresden performance. This is my 15th to take to a desert island.

Please do check out Ashkenazy's 15th, if you do have the Cycle. It arrived before Jansons, and I couldn't wait, and,... drumroll pleeease!... it's quite exciting and vital from beginning to end: it has some of the quickest slow movements on record, mimicking Mravinsky perhaps, and the effect is riveting. The tempos seem just right, though, and I really wonder how Sanderling can get a 20 minute last movement!

Ashkenazy's 9th is also one of the fleetest around, and in both he seems quite in tune with the characterizations of the different solo instruments. Though 9 and 15 would seem to make natural discmates, this may be the only pairing, and here they are played in two different venues, a year apart, but to no discernible effect. Check out Ashkenazy's quicker 'Moderato' in 9, against, say, Rostropovich (or Petrenko) for an example of his smarts in bringing out the jewish character of the anxious melody- this seems like such paranoid music!

Anyhow, if you have the Ashkenazy, please do check out the 15th at least, though both seem like Demonstration quality to me. But, then, I used to like his 5th! (surely not bad as a compare!).

I have to make special mention of this recording, which i think must be one of the best of the house from Decca/London. The triangle, the celesta(?), and the xylophone,- all the percussion in fact, in wonderfully rendered,- though the recording as a whole is typically 'Decca distant'- though perfectly so- so that really the only problem area was that very last percussion section at the very end, which is taken as fast as anyone would want, somewhat doesn't have the openness of, say, the classic Maxim debut version that we hear on YT. But, I'm really just being extra picky, because the - I believe- celesta at the very end is rendered beautifully, and especially the opening and closing triangle set the seal on this recording- it reminds me of Haitink's sound somewhat, but here Ashkenazy seems more 'human' than Haitink -

anyhow, Ashkenazy's a Winner in 15 (and 9) and is extra cheap if one wants to get it alone.

[snyprrr]

I have just been freeeaking out over which 15th to re-baptize my appreciation, and, drum roll please, after much and much reading, listening, and debating, I stumbled across a DarkHorse that I believe no one has yet mentioned here. Just to be clear, I was going to leave Mravinsky, Kondrashin, and Rozh for the second round, not least because of relative expense (though the Mravinsky can be had for cheap- I just hear it's not on the level of Kondrashin- please discuss).

I needed sound, yet issues like Solti/Decca, Haitink/Decca, and perhaps Jarvi/DG seemed too polite. Jansons has been praised for beauty, but no one mentions anything deeper. Now, someone at The DSCH Journal said that Ashkenazy, of all people, had a "terrifying" 15th likened to Mravinsky and Kondrashin. BUUUT... Ashkenazy's timings in the two Adagios are the quickest of the whole modern bunch (except Barshai)- but, - wait,... ok, I read on, and this Reviewer convinced me that this might be the antidote for my old Haitink (which has gone missing).

But, what of Jansons, and beauty? And, timings wise, Ashkenazy and Jansons seem like interesting compares. So, because Sanderling/Cleveland was a little more than I wanted to pay at the moment, and Petrenko came with "Naxos sound" (sorry, it's not Decca,Philips,DG,SONY,Teldec, good as it may be- it lost to the newer, 'live' Haitink in ReviewWar), and many other recordings fell by the wayside for one reason or another (Ormandy- adequate, but perhaps not essential?(being nice)).

So, I chose Jansons for the cymbal, and Ashkenazy because the Reviewer stole my heart (and the disc was $1 ). Expectations for both are outrageously high at this point, and any disappointment might scar me! But, I have a feeling about the Ashkenazy (SantaFeListener calls his 5th the most horrible thing ever!)- the timings are to-the-point, and we have sound by London (Studio 1?- or is that Jansons?).

And I haven't heard one bad word about the Jansons. So, Jansons and Ashkenazy for the Debut!

Ashkenazy's 15th just gets better and better. Jansons arrived today, and, I'm not sure I'm such a big fan of the protracted Adagio. Between Ashkenazy's 13:33 and Jansons's 17:03, I think Ashkenazy takes it without a peep. The Jansons Adagio just seemed to go on... and was it feeling limp? Anyhow, I will listen again- this is just a warning!

Both take the opening as anyone would want it, but it is in the little schizoid violin solo that we hear just normal playing (Jansons) versus some real nice scratchy violin work that reminded me a little of Irvine Arditti (Ashkenazy). Again, I heared the cello solo in the Adagio was rendered better with Ashkenazy.

Both fare pretty equally in the 'Scherzo', though, here, I think the actual engineering is what sets these two apart. I've heard how great this Jansons recording is, and no doubt it is very fine- but the Ashkenazy is just as fine and I do believe the percussion is rendered with just that much more clarity. Listen at the very end, when the (is it the celesta or xylophone, doh?!) comes in- those tinkling notes are just perfectly caught - one would have actually hoped that this was the Haitink 15th and not the Ashkenazy?!haha

So, even though Ashkenazy takes the ending 'faster' than most, I now don't think that it affects the ending percussion tick-tock, and I in fact prefer it to Jansons's slower tempo (now I really can't imagine Sanderling), The whole ending percussion barrage really hit me as not-quite-there in the Jansons- but, again, it's a somewhat oddly clunky rhythm as it is- I think most have issues here with balance and such?

I'll continue on with Jansons, but I want to emphatically state that this Ashkenazy 15th won hands down in an initial listening- and on some crucial points, I might add! Maybe I wouldn't harp on it if you couldn't get it for $2! BuyItNOW!!

I will be a bit more hesitant now in approaching Sanderling.


Karl? Ashkenazy 15 (no matter if the rest is offal, though, 9 is excellent too) (Royal Phil. vs Janson's London Phil.)

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.4


The 'Spectacular Ones'

Salonen/DG- these four widely figure into most everyone's  TopConsiderations (not necessarily ACTUAL Top5, perhaps). I have yet to read a
Chung/DG                    comprehensive review of the Salonen (perhaps he's not maniac enough?); Chung seems to currently be MostControversial simply in
Jansons/EMI                 terms of Yay/Nay votes (though NO ONE disputes the Sheer Supremacy of Sound); concerning both Jansons and Rattle- I can't figure
Rattle/EMI                    out what the reviewers are actually saying- Rattle seems to get disqualified because his timpani isn't "there", and Jansons is always
                                    getting remarks like "Humane", "Musical", but nothing I can understand. Sound for all is varying degrees of StateoftheArt

Gergiev/Philips- yes, I cut Gergiev, mostly for the criticism of his handling of quiet parts, and- what has happened to The Philips Sound?!?!harsh
Rostropovich/Teldec- this is the library copy I'm listening to, and i'm afraid it's just good enough to spoil me into being too picky. Frankly, it delivers, it's got the goods, the open sound, it staddles reigns in/reigns out very well- BUT I NEED MOREMOREMORE! Only the very last spark of madness is missing, but, I may be mistaken. I think it will make the Top7 at least.

Haitink/London-  only quibble is is that Haitink doesn't channel the devil himself; otherwise, the crystalline reputation intrigues. Top5?Top7?
Ashkenazy/Decca- hearing VERY mixed reviews. Some say "Weakest of Cycle"; some, "Flagging Start Becomes Ferocious"; some, "Great Decca Sound"
Ashenazy II/Decca (w/Japanese orch.)- I think the previous reviewer thought the remake was no better. What a shame- I'm cutting based on other reviews of the 13th and 14th with the same orchestra. Apparently just uncompetitive

Jarvi/Chandos- ALWAYS in the Top2-3, next to Rozhdestventsky.  Some may debate the 'Chandos Sound'- here, I don't. I VOTE      JARVI


Other Current Top Choices

Rozhd./RussianDisc (1980s)- always recognized as one of the Top3, but always with the caveat of sound issues
M.Shostakovich/Supraphon- this is still a dark horse that I'm only hearing good things about, but haven't found a long review of
Haitink/CSOResound[/s]- this one is in danger of being cut, because the field is now just too crowded


Labels with Good Engineering Reputations

Kofman/MDG- the reviewer betrayed deal breaking flaws in execution- pity, MDG's sound is always a factor, but can't save the day
Boreyko/Hanssler- good as some say it is, the sound/performance standards for this work are too high (currently) to warrant entry into the Top7


Two Odd Ducks

Herbig/Berlin
Kegel/Weitblick


The Rest of the Modern, High Profile Recordings

"more info"

Barshai/Brilliant- some rave, but I'm too curious about Maxim/Supr. to consider- too many other Russians too
Petrenko/Naxos- I'm debating on cutting Petrenko because of one dissenting review, claiming he doesn't drain the verrry last drop
Caetani/Arts
Slovak/Naxos
Bychkov/Avie- Bychkov getting high marks, but not high enough to seem to matter in such a crowded field
Raiskin/Cavi-Music- Raiskin is getting comments like "Most Lacerating 1stMvmt"- with good sound
Inbal/Denon

"less info"

Polyansky/VistaVera
Wigglesworth/BIS- some of the reviewers really seem to like him, but there is always a caveat
Judd/NuevaEra
Simonov/Cypres
Venzago/MusiquesSuisse


The Three Americans

Ormandy/SONY- I HAVE to start cutting- Ormandy gets the axe compared with Chung (let's say)
Slatkin/RCA- where exactly does Slatkin fall down- or does he? RCA sound could be spectacular?
Previn/EMI- I'm reading more and more good stuff here. Is sound the only drawback?


The Originals

Rozhd./Alliance (1962)
Kondrashin/Profil (1960s)
Kondrtashin/Melodya-BMG
---/Regis-TransitionsLive???

[Brahmsian]

Petrenko/Naxos- I'm debating on cutting Petrenko because of one dissenting review, claiming he doesn't drain the verrry last drop

I think that would be a mistake.  Good to the last drop! 

[snyprrr]

I think that would be a mistake.  Good to the last drop! 

Is he daemonic enough though? Do you like someone better?. If this were 'The Matrix', and...




I'll admit I almost had my finger on the trigger, but went a' review huntin', and the one guy reeeally let Petrenko have it (which, granted, was pretty much only that, in such broad tempi, he missed "something or other"haha). He'll have to be better than Jarvi, cause that's where I'm leaning at the moment (price would be a slight consideration, but most everyone's cheap).

Jarvi and Previn fared the best in my "Emotional Poll" (how does snyprrr "feeeeel" about it)


SERIOUSLY, I NEEEED TO GET A PERFECT FOURTH IN SPECTACULAR SOUND BY SUNSET!!

[snyprrr]

Jansons vs Rattle

Please, please, I beg of you, clear the air here for me, what are the actual forensic result of these two? Rattle seems to engender totally polarizing reviews, whilst basically mims-the-word concerning any detail of Jansons's sound or performance. Are either in the Top3? Surely the Top5 or Top7?

All I hear about Rattle is the "problem" with the timpani. Other than that, people wet the bed over this. WHAT'S THE TRUTH??

JansonsJansonsJansons... WHAT'S THE TRUTH???


Life must go on, but it will go on AFTER this issue has been settled! Who will cross the bridge of sighs and slay this mystery?

[snyprrr]

Was Paavo being conceived when this Symphony was recorded?


Karl's admonition notwithstanding(?)- ah,...- have you listened recently and I just forgot?... I'm giving the boom boom acoustics the benefit of the doubt at the moment. The fact that so many recording seem to be recorded at a 'safe' distance (the Ashkenazy sample came to mind),... well, we'll hear when it comes...

And if I'd had an extra $7 I would have gotten Jansons too- due to LEAST amount of negative comments!! haha

And Previn, for an Oldie.

If I had lottery winnings Id splurge on Salonen AND Chung.



I ALMOST took Slatkin on a personal bet, but... I wus scrurred.

[snyprrr]

I'm sorry if anyone's disappointed.

[Karl Henning]

Jansons & Rattle . . . I think I may do a spot-listen . . . .

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm sorry if anyone's disappointed.

You passed up Jansons, Rattle, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Previn and Slava for...Järvi? 

I'm so disappointed 

Sarge