Norman Lebrecht bashes the Vienna Philharmonic

[Phrygian]

This article has just appeared in The Australian newspaper today, having originally been published in The Spectator.  Lebrecht goes on the rampage (much like Pip's sister/guardian wielding The Tickler in "Great Expectations"), once again, about the great orchestra.  His bashing of musicians and institutions has defined him as the grand Poo-Bah, with his sarcastic fulminations and sanctimonious pronouncements.  There's so much of the old-style class warrior about this man;  the tired old tics of the chronically under-appreciated.  Once again he's grinding the affirmative action ax in his diatribe about the 'closed shop' and 'old boys network' of the Vienna Philharmonic. 

Nobody takes the  annual Neujahrskonzert seriously - it's a bit of fluff and a tourism promotion, after all.  But Lebrecht is having none of it, content instead to contemptuously invoke the breathless "how beautiful" from the 'dowagers' in the audience.  This is the 21st Century, Norman, and the current crop of musicians have nothing whatever to do with Nazis.  Barenboim is conveniently airbrushed out of the picture, even though he's a regular conductor of the orchestra and a Jew. 

http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/arts-feature/9395582/the-nazi-origins-of-the-vienna-phils-new-years-day-concert/#comments

[Cosi bel do]

The main problem is that N.L. raises important issues in this article and his usual "diatribes" (to use your own word) about the Vienna Phil. (how it is actually managed, how some excellent musicians from the Staatsoper are not "chosen", in particular when they are women or non white). But they are kind of overshadowed by these other claims about the history of the orchestra, which is making the whole argumentation inefficient. Even if this history has parts that were disclosed way too late, should still be better studied, and if some past decisions (medals, etc.) should be officially reversed.

[Phrygian]

The main problem is that N.L. raises important issues in this article and his usual "diatribes" (to use your own word) about the Vienna Phil. (how it is actually managed, how some excellent musicians from the Staatsoper are not "chosen", in particular when they are women or non white). But they are kind of overshadowed by these other claims about the history of the orchestra, which is making the whole argumentation inefficient. Even if this history has parts that were disclosed way too late, should still be better studied, and if some past decisions (medals, etc.) should be officially reversed.

You know what, Discobolus, discrimination is actually practiced regularly in all sectors of society - not just music - along gender, sexual preference, political, marital status or religious lines;  you name it.  Some organizations are more subtle about it, that's all. 

It's important to understand that, like the Berliners, the VPO is actually self-governing and so a decision to exclude women and non-whites (your words as well as Lebrechts) is made by the entire orchestra (which DOES contain female musicians) - and which is actually none of my business.  What IS my business is that the orchestra performs at the very highest level to a paying audience. 

Personally, it pleases me that the majority of the players are men!!!  Please don't suggest to me that a female or Asian player of phenomenal virtuosity is going to be rejected by the Vienna Philharmonic simply because of gender and/or ethnicity.  Ain't gonna happen.

You're probably too young to know about or have seen the hilarious sketch in the 1960's from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore about the man auditioning for the role of Tarzan.  He (Moore) had only one leg and Peter Cook (the casting agent) didn't want to give the man the impression he was being discriminated against.  The script went something like this:

"..Don't misunderstand me...yours is a fine leg....I've got nothing against the leg, but then neither have you.  If we are looking for a one-legged Tarzan you'll surely get the role".

A little bit of humour goes such a long long way.

[mc ukrneal]

It's important to understand that, like the Berliners, the VPO is actually self-governing and so a decision to exclude women and non-whites (your words as well as Lebrechts) is made by the entire orchestra (which DOES contain female musicians) - and which is actually none of my business.  What IS my business is that the orchestra performs at the very highest level to a paying audience. 

Personally, it pleases me that the majority of the players are men!!!  Please don't suggest to me that a female or Asian player of phenomenal virtuosity is going to be rejected by the Vienna Philharmonic simply because of gender and/or ethnicity.  Ain't gonna happen.

But it is our business (for all sorts of reasons). Otherwise, they still might be an all male group and a female would indeed be rejected out of hand (though they would never get that far). If we simply ignore what others do, claiming it's 'their business' or 'not my business'...well, the world would be a darker place. The same is true for some golf clubs/societies that have long excluded women for, gasp, being women. Stupid rule.

It neither pleases nor displeases me that they are men or women, but it would displease me if they excluded others based on gender, age, race, etc. Only then will you get an orchestra that plays to its highest level.

[Brian]

You know what, Discobolus, discrimination is actually practiced regularly in all sectors of society - not just music - along gender, sexual preference, political, marital status or religious lines;  you name it.

This does not make discrimination good. Discrimination is still bad.

It's important to understand that, like the Berliners, the VPO is actually self-governing and so a decision to exclude women and non-whites (your words as well as Lebrechts) is made by the entire orchestra (which DOES contain female musicians) - and which is actually none of my business.

That's not fair. The USA includes black people, but the USA is still racist against black people. Saying the VPO is not sexist because the VPO contains women is just stupid. Do you expect that the female musicians in the VPO will control hiring decisions? The orchestra can still be very, very sexist, even if it contains both sexes.

Personally, it pleases me that the majority of the players are men!!!

WHY? Why does this please you?? Why? Seriously. It would please me if every VPO member were an African pygmy from Congo, if they could play great music. Why does the sex matter to you??

Please don't suggest to me that a female or Asian player of phenomenal virtuosity is going to be rejected by the Vienna Philharmonic simply because of gender and/or ethnicity.  Ain't gonna happen.

Do you have evidence for this? Because we know the orchestra has a history of sexism and racism. You have the burden of proof here.

You're probably too young to know about or have seen the hilarious sketch in the 1960's from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore about the man auditioning for the role of Tarzan.  He (Moore) had only one leg and Peter Cook (the casting agent) didn't want to give the man the impression he was being discriminated against.  The script went something like this:

What a horrible, false analogy. A one-legged person playing Tarzan is HUGELY different from a woman playing the violin. Are you saying that a woman is as bad at music as an amputee is at playing Tarzan? You can't possibly be saying that. You are a smart person. You understand that women can play music just as well, and better than, men can. So the Tarzan thing is totally irrelevant, right?

[amw]

I'm somewhat disappointed NL chose to focus on the well-known awfulness of the Vienna Phil for this article—it's already a matter of public record and this uses up his quota of things to be right about for the next few years. If he chose to attack the classical music world for its hypocrisy in bashing Russia while toadying to the UAE and China instead that might have made a better stopped-clock moment. As it is I predict six more weeks of winter

[The new erato]

Thanks to Brian for writing a well-considered reponse to an OP that deserved a riposte.

[Jo498]

If he chose to attack the classical music world for its hypocrisy in bashing Russia while toadying to the UAE and China instead that might have made a better stopped-clock moment.

I'd understand this sentence better if "classical music world" was replaced by "western world" or "western mainstream media", but I have not seen that the "classical music world" has been particularly hypocritical here, other than being a part of western media. What are you referring to?

[amw]

Thanks to Brian for writing a well-considered reponse to an OP that deserved a riposte.

I appreciate it too, though I still think it's about 10 years too late for anyone to make a dent in the entrenched, lazy, cynical right-wing bullshit GMG members have been spewing out on every topic other than classical music. (Not too dissimilar from what Norman Lebrecht spews out on the topic of classical music, for that matter.) May as well try to defend civil rights on Stormfront.

I'd understand this sentence better if "classical music world" was replaced by "western world" or "western mainstream media", but I have not seen that the "classical music world" has been particularly hypocritical here, other than being a part of western media. What are you referring to?

You do have a point. I'm referring to how establishment classical music figures are in bed with regimes known to be corrupt and oppressive (such as China and the Gulf states) while denouncing other regimes on the alleged basis of their corruption and oppression (such as Russia and Venezuela), but this is true of a lot of things, these days. Politicians, etc. Some people are good with the callouts on this kind of behaviour, particularly Pliable (ex. a recent post called out Jordi Savall for refusing Spanish money while accepting UAE money... he regularly takes potshots at Lebrecht and his vested interests as well) and the pianist/teacher/activist Ian Pace.

[Phrygian]

This does not make discrimination good. Discrimination is still bad.
That's not fair. The USA includes black people, but the USA is still racist against black people. Saying the VPO is not sexist because the VPO contains women is just stupid. Do you expect that the female musicians in the VPO will control hiring decisions? The orchestra can still be very, very sexist, even if it contains both sexes.
WHY? Why does this please you?? Why? Seriously. It would please me if every VPO member were an African pygmy from Congo, if they could play great music. Why does the sex matter to you??
Do you have evidence for this? Because we know the orchestra has a history of sexism and racism. You have the burden of proof here.
What a horrible, false analogy. A one-legged person playing Tarzan is HUGELY different from a woman playing the violin. Are you saying that a woman is as bad at music as an amputee is at playing Tarzan? You can't possibly be saying that. You are a smart person. You understand that women can play music just as well, and better than, men can. So the Tarzan thing is totally irrelevant, right?

Oh dear, a sense of humour badly needed.  You missed the point COMPLETELY;  it was about satirizing discrimination.

I don't feel like continuing a discussion with lefties who see the world through the prism of victimhood.  This is what bores me about message-boarding;  twenty somethings who have an ax to grind.  The disgusting capitalist system and how it demeans and discriminates...bla bla bla bla ad nauseum.  I've heard it all before when I was a teacher.

Be happy!!  Lighten up. It's Christmas.

[The new erato]

I'm 63 and definitely neither a leftie nor a victim (with a family income close to USD 400.000 I probably don't fall into your comfortable categorizations) . But you are welcome of course to imagine whatever you want if it makes you comfortable.

[Phrygian]

I'm 63 and definitely neither a leftie nor a victim (with a family income close to USD 400.000 I probably don't fall into your comfortable categorizations) . But you are welcome of course to imagine whatever you want if it makes you comfortable.

A fantasist too!!  Delicious.

[The new erato]

Meaning?

PS I admit that after the recent bashing of the NOK against the USD dollar an exact fgure might be closer to 350.000; but still enough not to leve me felling neither victimized nor prativcuarly leftish (as Norwegian politics go). Of course a Norwegian rightwinger is a bleeding heart liberal by your standards.

PS2: And of course close 40 % of the net amount is paid in taxes. I guess I am a leftie anyway as I find that OK, in exchange for free university education, free health services and a very substantial social security net.

[amw]

I don't feel like continuing a discussion

How unexpected.

Someone making an inflammatory OP, getting a few responses, then dropping some veiled insults and fucking off for a while? That has never happened before on the internet. Ever. I suggest we argue and call each other names for 100 pages or so until the moderators come in, lock the thread and ban everyone. It seems the best tactic really.

[Cosi bel do]

Thanks to those who continued with the simple arguments as an anwser to Phrygian's diatribe against... well, against what exactly already ? Norman Lebrecht ? Women ? Asians ? Leftists ? Communists ? People-who-don't-agree ?

I appreciate it too, though I still think it's about 10 years too late for anyone to make a dent in the entrenched, lazy, cynical right-wing bullshit GMG members have been spewing out on every topic other than classical music. (Not too dissimilar from what Norman Lebrecht spews out on the topic of classical music, for that matter.) May as well try to defend civil rights on Stormfront.

I'm not sure it is so catastrophic. There are a few very GMGers who happen to proudly show how conservative their ideas are. But what about the others ? I think there are more liberals than hardline rightists here, but most people are just too tired and uninterested to argue, or even (it's my case) feel bad for these poor guys who can't seem to find people agreeing with them in the modern world, except on an internet board

[mc ukrneal]

Oh dear, a sense of humour badly needed.  You missed the point COMPLETELY;  it was about satirizing discrimination.

I don't feel like continuing a discussion with lefties who see the world through the prism of victimhood.  This is what bores me about message-boarding;  twenty somethings who have an ax to grind.  The disgusting capitalist system and how it demeans and discriminates...bla bla bla bla ad nauseum.  I've heard it all before when I was a teacher.

Be happy!!  Lighten up. It's Christmas.

Snypps, is that you?

[Sergeant Rock]

I appreciate it too, though I still think it's about 10 years too late for anyone to make a dent in the entrenched, lazy, cynical right-wing bullshit GMG members have been spewing out on every topic other than classical music....May as well try to defend civil rights on Stormfront.

Are you saying GMG is a fascist cesspool?    I think you're confusing GMG with CMG, whose owner really is a right wing nut case. It's the reason I stopped posting there. Of course there are conservatives here too (some thoughtful, some not so thoughtful) but they are not a majority and have never galloped freely over the forum without opposition. This thread is a case in point: Phrygian vs Brian, Neal, Erato, Disco, yourself.

A few years ago many of us took a political spectrum test which graphed the individual results. They were what you'd expect of any random group of people: spread about evenly from the right to the left. (Edit: Disco found the original thread. Now that I've seen it again, refreshed my memory, I can see that most participants are left of center.) I'm L & L....even though I'm not a twentysomething with an ax to grind 




Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I think there are more liberals than hardline rightists here, but most people are just too tired and uninterested to argue

In my case, at my age, I simply see how useless it is trying to debate the partisan mind. Partisan minds have calcified; they can't be changed. It's a quixotic mission and a waste of what little time I have left. Supporting, making excuses for, the WP's disgusting hiring practices (racism, bigotry, misogyny) in the name of tradition and capitalist freedom is wrong but I'm not going to debate Phrygian. I'm happy to see Brian take up the sword though.

Sarge

[Cosi bel do]

Thanks Sarge, I found the topic about this test.

[The new erato]

In my case, at my age, I simply see how useless it is trying to debate the partisan mind. Partisan minds have calcified; they can't be changed. It's a quixotic mission and a waste of what little time I have left. Supporting, making excuses for, the WP's disgusting hiring practices (racism, bigotry, misogyny) in the name of tradition and capitalist freedom is wrong but I'm not going to debate Phrygian. I'm happy to see Brian take up the sword though.

Sarge

Wise man Sarge!