Six great 8th symphonies.

[Brian]

In the sixth, think of how the opening of the first movement is transformed at the end of the finale.

In the seventh, think of the first movement: three primary "slabs" of material in differing tempos. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear a conductor who takes the opening of the first movement at anywhere near Bruckner's prescribed tempo; heard correctly, it should be a flowing 2/2, Allegro moderato, and about twice as fast as it's usually played (a 4/4 Andante).

I guess I don't think of what he does with the opening/closing reprise in the Sixth as being too different from previous symphonies that quote their beginnings in their final moments, e.g. the (at the time very new) Tchaikovsky Fourth.

I'm not wild about Norrington, but have you heard the other speedmeister, Harnoncourt? This kind of thing is very frustrating.

[Brian]

(Also I should hear the 7th at some point. Which one's best?)

Sure sounds like this will end like the 6th, where you'll read along in the score and discover that all our favorites take wild liberties. 

Having said that, I generally prefer the Haas edition (no percussion in the slow movement) over the Nowak edition (big cymbal crash and drum rolls at the climax).

[jochanaan]

"... and THIS is how I find out?!"

There is a live Karajan recording of Bruckner 8 on YouTube, with the Vienna Philharmonic.  It didn't satisfy me nearly as much as I expected; some sections were actually rushed!  I lean more toward the Celibidache school of Bruckner 8, although it is definitely an acquired taste.

If you're interested in the early version, there is a recording by the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland led by Georg Tintner.  it's a worthy reading, a little faster than I like but with fine playing.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I guess I don't think of what he does with the opening/closing reprise in the Sixth as being too different from previous symphonies that quote their beginnings in their final moments, e.g. the (at the time very new) Tchaikovsky Fourth.

I think you mean the Fifth. But Bruckner doesn't just quote the opening in his finale, he transforms it harmonically to stabilize what was originally a much more chromatic motif. I guess you could say Tchaikovsky does the same thing.

I'm not wild about Norrington, but have you heard the other speedmeister, Harnoncourt? This kind of thing is very frustrating.

I'm not exactly sure what "this thing" is, but no. Bruckner, however, has left three pieces of evidence as to how the opening should go: a tempo (Allegro moderato), a time signature (2/2), and a metronome mark (half=58). All consistently point to the opening being usually played much slower than he intended. The scherzo, too, is marked Sehr schnell (very fast), where in many performances it just kind of jogs along. More serious, however, is that the rhythm of the main motif is often played wrong: Bruckner writes a double-dotted quarter followed by a sixteenth; most of the time I hear a dotted quarter followed by an eighth. And he must have meant that, as it occurs in every iteration of the motif, and it would take a lot more effort to write it out that way by hand. I wonder if Norrington gets that right.

[Brian]

I'm not exactly sure what "this thing" is

(not being able to find a decent recording that resembles the written score)

I'm going to give Norrington a listen via streaming later today, purely out of curiosity.

[jochanaan]

I think you mean the Fifth....

Tchaikovsky did the same thing in his Fourth Symphony.

[Jo498]

Somewhere else someone claimed that the Metronome markings in the first movement of the 7th were not to be found in Bruckner's autograph or the Urtext edition.
Anyway, in the score at IMSLP it says half note 58 for the first subject, and rather slight slowing down (albeit changing the reference to quarter note) for the second (letter B, quarter=108) and third subject (letter E, quarter=96)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Tchaikovsky did the same thing in his Fourth Symphony.

Not at the end of the finale.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Somewhere else someone claimed that the Metronome markings in the first movement of the 7th were not to be found in Bruckner's autograph or the Urtext edition.

I'm looking at the Eulenburg edition which is supposedly based on the first publication of the full score in 1885.

[Brian]

Not at the end of the finale.

Correct, it's in the finale but just not in the last bars as with Anton B.

Norrington's first movement is fast and flowing, but marred by the (to me) ugly and (pointlessly) vibrato-free strings. It's easy to imagine the same orchestra with a different conductor sounding great at the same tempo.

[jochanaan]

I'm looking at the Eulenburg edition which is supposedly based on the first publication of the full score in 1885.

The Eulenberg editions seem mostly to have included alterations, additions and even cuts by Bruckner's "friends." The only metronome markings I remember from the Leopold Nowak edition, 1887 version, is 69 to the half note for the beginning of the finale and 60 for the second theme.  (Interestingly, most of the recordings I've heard take that opening theme considerably faster than 69, not at all "Solemnly, not fast"!)

[(poco) Sforzando]

The Eulenberg editions seem mostly to have included alterations, additions and even cuts by Bruckner's "friends." The only metronome markings I remember from the Leopold Nowak edition, 1887 version, is 69 to the half note for the beginning of the finale and 60 for the second theme.  (Interestingly, most of the recordings I've heard take that opening theme considerably faster than 69, not at all "Solemnly, not fast"!)

Depends on which Eulenburg printing you're talking about. The latest versions (of which I own several) have a sticker proclaiming "New Edition," and they are explicitly based on the critical Gesamtausgabe; in fact, several of the symphonies are printed in multiple versions depending on the revision involved. My copy of the 7th is an older printing, but I think this is one of the less problematic texts among the symphonies; in any case it claims to steer a "middle ground" between Nowak and Haas, whatever that means, and to be based as I said above on the first publication of the full score in 1885. In any case metronome marks are provided for all the movements in this score; if they are not Bruckner's, they appear at least to be contemporaneous. I also once had a Kalmus edition of the 4th and 7th in one volume that clearly presented corrupt texts, and in addition to my new Eulenburg 5th I have a Kalmus 5th that is also most likely a version by Bruckner's "friends." In any case, editorial standards for Eulenburg scores have improved markedly in recent decades (vs., say Dover, which will print whatever they can their hands on most of the time).

[Minor Key]

My personal favorite "six great 8th symphonies":
1. Schubert (maybe my favorite symphony of all, the melody sticks in my head).
2. Dvořák
3. Vaughan Williams
4. Beethoven
5. Shostakovich
6. Mahler

[vandermolen]

My personal favorite "six great 8th symphonies":
1. Schubert (maybe my favorite symphony of all, the melody sticks in my head).
2. Dvořák
3. Vaughan Williams
4. Beethoven
5. Shostakovich
6. Mahler

Interesting to see the VW rated so highly in this thread.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Interesting to see the VW rated so highly in this thread.

Not by me, and yes, I gave it another spin a couple of days ago.

[RebLem]

Beethoven, Schubert, Dvorak, Mahler, Bruckner, Milhaud, Shostakovich. Pettersson, and Tubin.  (That's nine).

[Christo]

Interesting to see the VW rated so highly in this thread.

The first movement is one of the most perfect that I know.

[vandermolen]

The first movement is one of the most perfect that I know.

Yes, it has a magical quality to it, especially in the Previn recording which is my favourite.