Jazz outré

[Karl Henning]

A thread for Jazz from unlikely sources (we might say).

Exhibit A:

http://www.youtube.com/v/G6o8ZnKN_H8

[NorthNYMark]

Interesting point.  Yes, as I was listening, it reminded me very much of Cecil Taylor, among others, though presumably every note here is composed, which would be the biggest fundamental difference.

[jochanaan]

Milhaud: La creation du monde.

[Brian]

Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr four-hands-ing a boogie-woogie piano tune:

http://www.youtube.com/v/gqfV8lsUHvs

[Karl Henning]

Jazz accordion from Russia:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ku7d0eAoTEo

[Karl Henning]

.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Wm9nu37KLBM

[escher]

Little Umbrellas is one of my favorite pieces written by Zappa, but is there any improvisation? I'm not sure if this thread is about jazz or more music influenced by the harmonies and rhyhtms of  jazz music but without improvisations.
If it's the second option as it seems I love the octets of Alec Wilder (one the greatest melodists of the century in my opinion)

Her old man was suspicious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIIte67Fq7k

Seldom the sun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgglQuGM9q4

Footnote to a summer love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiV9b33uK0w

Such a tender night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CAeFcQduaw

[king ubu]

These might be of interest:




The first actually contains two thirds of another "Modern Jazz Society Presents" album, orchestral as well, while the second is small group. The later, in its official incarnation (Verve Elite Edition CD reissue, PolyGram, 1999) might be hard to get, but it's included on one Avid's cheapo sets:

[asin]B0021AY35U[/asin]
These are cheap indeed, but not nearly as bad as those other ones offering 17 albums on 5 1/2 discs for 2 pence.

[Karl Henning]

Little Umbrellas is one of my favorite pieces written by Zappa, but is there any improvisation?

Need there be?  Maybe this makes me a renegade, but I've never held with the idea that for jazz to be jazz, improvisation is a pre-requisite.

[escher]

Need there be?  Maybe this makes me a renegade, but I've never held with the idea that for jazz to be jazz, improvisation is a pre-requisite.

I don't think it's a thing of purism  and certainly not of value (as I've said I love those things I've posted, the piece of Zappa and I don't dislike All set) but I think that most than any other thing improvisation is what defines jazz. A piece without improvisation could show certainly a deep influence in terms of harmony and rhythm but it's not jazz, even if it's the work of a jazz musician.
Anyway I think it's more clear now what the thread is about. 
So here's one of my favorite pieces of the early... jazz (in this case I don't even know if it was fully notated or if there's some improvisation in it): Red Norvo's surreal and evocative Dance of the octopus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WysRQuq9IyI

It seems that Norvo had something like other thirty compositions in this vein but he destroyed the scores, discouraged after that the boss of Brunswick, Jack Kapp said that the piece was garbage. Gunther Schuller considered it one of the great losses in the history of jazz and I agree, there's nothing that sounds like Dance of the octopus.

[North Star]

Need there be?  Maybe this makes me a renegade, but I've never held with the idea that for jazz to be jazz, improvisation is a pre-requisite.

This leads to the question: what is it that makes any music jazz, if it's not the tradition of improvisation?

[Mirror Image]

Need there be?  Maybe this makes me a renegade, but I've never held with the idea that for jazz to be jazz, improvisation is a pre-requisite.

But one of the defining characteristics of jazz music is improvisation. Of course, not all jazz has improvisation (I'm thinking here of some Duke Ellington's work) and the music is actually written down on notation paper, but, IMHO, I believe jazz and improvisation aren't mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other.

[Karl Henning]

[...] I believe jazz and improvisation aren't mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other.

You've here said two different things!  I agree with the first ("jazz and improvisation aren't mutually exclusive");  cannot agree with the second . . . in my view there is jazz even without improvisation (as you yourself remark, with Duke Ellington!), and there is plenty of improvisation outside of a jazz context.

[Mirror Image]

You've here said two different things!  I agree with the first ("jazz and improvisation aren't mutually exclusive");  cannot agree with the second . . . in my view there is jazz even without improvisation (as you yourself remark, with Duke Ellington!), and there is plenty of improvisation outside of a jazz context.

Yes, but wouldn't you agree that the spirit of jazz rests in the art of improvisation, Karl? I mean imagine listening to Miles Davis' So What with no improvisation? It would be only 3-4 minutes long.

[jochanaan]

Improvisation or not, I feel the Duke said it best: "It don't mean a thing/If it ain't got that swing."

[Henk]

Improvisation or not, I feel the Duke said it best: "It don't mean a thing/If it ain't got that swing."

Ok, I suggest you should post more in this Music room.

[jochanaan]

Ok, I suggest you should post more in this Music room.

I'll take that as a compliment!

[Karl Henning]

Bien sûr!

[Brian]

Yes, but wouldn't you agree that the spirit of jazz rests in the art of improvisation, Karl? I mean imagine listening to Miles Davis' So What with no improvisation? It would be only 3-4 minutes long.

My impression was it would only be about 45 seconds long without improvisation! I think Miles just brought the basic bass figure and the two-note "So What" call by the horns, and let everybody do whatever they want with it.

[Karl Henning]

There's a body of jazz to which that applies;  does that mean it's the sine qua non?