The Nielsen Nexus

[Karl Henning]

I disagree with the praise of Alan Gilbert's Nielsen in that article. I don't think it's 'all that.'

I agree. I'm not hearing what this MusicWeb guy hears in Gilbert's Espansiva. He writes:

"Let's deal first with the engineering: it is the servant of the music but here the stereo is a sensuous experience in its own right! Never before on disc have I heard layering and inner detail which the conductor here elicits and the musicians contribute."

Lack of detail is what I first noticed about the disc. I'm listening to it again, with earphones this time, and I'm still missing tons of detail (especially trumpet and woodwind detail) I hear in other recordings.

He writes: "Alan Gilbert interprets Nielsen's Third Symphony in a way I have never heard before."

I hear a quite an ordinary interpretation. Nothing stands out as particularly, or uniquely, special. (Edit: the Allegretto is nicely done.)

Because of my disappointment with Gilbert's Third, I didn't buy the rest of his cycle. Maybe I'm missing out but based on what I have heard I'm not worrying about it.

Sarge

Not saying that I take his words at face value.  Only that he's written a dramatic review  0:)    

[Mirror Image]

Not saying that I take his words at face value.  Only that he's written a dramatic review  0:)    

I didn't read the full review myself, but I noticed that blurb about Gilbert's Nielsen and had to comment on it. The review was a bit long for me. I tend to like reviews that get to the point a bit more quickly. I suppose I'm Stravinskian in that regard.

[Karl Henning]

Well, and one of the things I find most interesting is, here's someone who (in a peculiar use of the idiom) has heard more Nielsen symphonies than [he has] eaten proverbial hot dinners, yet his supreme pick (apparently) is the Gilbert, for which both John and the Sarge have expressed relative indifference.

Again, not saying it signifies anything, beyond isn't it funny how we all hear music differently . . . .

[Mirror Image]

True, Karl and one of the things that I'm surprised about is the Sarge and I agree on something. Expect two worlds to collide.

[Sergeant Rock]

Again, not saying it signifies anything, beyond isn't it funny how we all hear music differently . . . .

Well, I'm listening for specific things in recordings of the Espansiva, and when I don't hear those things, I'm bummed. Those who don't care about those details will probably be baffled by my negative response. Schonwandt and Gilbert fail me so I can't agree with the praise they've received.

I would love to ask the MusicWeb critic about the detail he claims to hear when it is so obvious to my ears that much goes missing. But it goes beyond the inner detail here. I don't find the interpretation (save the Allegretto) compelling either. Besides what I've already written about the performance, I have to say the last movement may be the dullest, least exciting I've ever heard (I own fifteen versions). Usually I'm not this negative but boy, Gilbert really disappoints me.

Interestingly, though, I agree with this critic's review of Kuchar's cycle (one of my top three along with Ormandy/Bernstein and Schmidt):

"Reissued this month is the remarkable 3-CD symphony cycle which Theodore Kuchar and the Janácek Orchestra recorded in 2005 in the Czech Republic for Brilliant Classics (review). Still at bargain price, and from 2012 attractively presented, I confess that I had ignored it until encouraged to unwrap the cellophane by a MusicWeb International reader. Suffice to say that Kuchar's Nielsen is both a bargain and a top flight performance of all six symphonies. The engineering is first class; the sound is transparent, dynamic and natural. The performances establish the new, modern, international sound of Carl Nielsen..."

I also agree with his favorable review of Bostock's Espansiva.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

True, Karl and one of the things that I'm surprised about is the Sarge and I agree on something. Expect two worlds to collide.

Since we disagree about Schonwandt, that may give us enough repulsion to avoid a collision 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

I also agree with his favorable review of Bostock's Espansiva.

Maybe the reviewer just needs some more hot dinners 

[Mirror Image]

Well, I'm listening for specific things in recordings of the Espansiva, and when I don't hear those things, I'm bummed. Those who don't care about those details will probably be baffled by my negative response. Schonwandt and Gilbert fail me so I can't agree with the praise they've received.

I would love to ask the MusicWeb critic about the detail he claims to hear when it is so obvious to my ears that much goes missing. But it goes beyond the inner detail here. I don't find the interpretation (save the Allegretto) compelling either. Besides what I've already written about the performance, I have to say the last movement may be the dullest, least exciting I've ever heard (I own fifteen versions). Usually I'm not this negative but boy, Gilbert really disappoints me.

Interestingly, though, I agree with this critic's review of Kuchar's cycle (one of my top three along with Ormandy/Bernstein and Schmidt):

"Reissued this month is the remarkable 3-CD symphony cycle which Theodore Kuchar and the Janácek Orchestra recorded in 2005 in the Czech Republic for Brilliant Classics (review). Still at bargain price, and from 2012 attractively presented, I confess that I had ignored it until encouraged to unwrap the cellophane by a MusicWeb International reader. Suffice to say that Kuchar's Nielsen is both a bargain and a top flight performance of all six symphonies. The engineering is first class; the sound is transparent, dynamic and natural. The performances establish the new, modern, international sound of Carl Nielsen..."

I also agree with his favorable review of Bostock's Espansiva.

Sarge

But several questions remain: have you heard Oramo yet? What about Chung's Espansiva on BIS? I think it's one of the best ones I've heard along with Bernstein's and Oramo's. I can't say I'm particularly impressed with Bostock's Nielsen or at least from what I'm heard so far (Symphonies 4 & 5 and Pan & Syrinx). I also don't think much of Schmidt and the recessed strings don't do the music any favors. Kuchar isn't much of a contender for me either as I don't think the orchestra is very good. If I had to pick one cycle right now to go to the desert island with me it would be Oramo on BIS. It's THAT good. These are exciting performances with great clarity and precision. I really wish Thomas Dausgaard would record the cycle as I was quite impressed with that recording he made of miscellaneous orchestral works on Dacapo.

[kishnevi]

I agree. I'm not hearing what this MusicWeb guy hears in Gilbert's Espansiva. He writes:

"Let's deal first with the engineering: it is the servant of the music but here the stereo is a sensuous experience in its own right! Never before on disc have I heard layering and inner detail which the conductor here elicits and the musicians contribute."

Lack of detail is what I first noticed about the disc. I'm listening to it again, with earphones this time, and I'm still missing tons of detail (especially trumpet and woodwind detail) I hear in other recordings.

He writes: "Alan Gilbert interprets Nielsen's Third Symphony in a way I have never heard before."

I hear a quite an ordinary interpretation. Nothing stands out as particularly, or uniquely, special. (Edit: the Allegretto is nicely done.)

Because of my disappointment with Gilbert's Third, I didn't buy the rest of his cycle. Maybe I'm missing out but based on what I have heard I'm not worrying about it.

Sarge

Give the "supplemental" CD of the concertos a try.  Gilbert got those right, although the symphonies recordings themselves are the epitome of "meh"

[Sergeant Rock]

But several questions remain: have you heard Oramo yet? What about Chung's Espansiva on BIS?

Chung's one of my favorites. I own these. Favorites in bold. Oramo I haven't heard. Still debating whether, at my age, I need another Espansiva 

Rozhdestvensky    12:44  11:06  7:06  11:04
Schmidt              12:06  10:13  6:37   9:30
Horenstein            12:04   9:57   7:33   9:59
Saraste                 12:03   8:46   5:49   9:36
Schonwandt          11:44   9:34   6:21   9:36
Bernstein            11:37   9:50   6:26   9:28
Davis                    11:28   7:26   6:29   9:18
Gilbert                  11.24   9:12   6:36  10:03
Kuchar                11:19   9:41   6:35    9:16
Salonen               11:15   9:37   6:43  10:22
Chung                 11:07  10:00  6:41    9:17
Berglund               11:00   8:21   6:19   9:33
Frandsen             10:55   8:05   6:04   8:47
Bostock               10:37    9:14   6:14   9:39
Blomstedt             10:35    9:07   6:21   9:18


Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Give the "supplemental" CD of the concertos a try.  Gilbert got those right, although the symphonies recordings themselves are the epitome of "meh"

Thanks...I'll consider it.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

Chung's one of my favorites. I own these. Favorites in bold. Oramo I haven't heard. Still debating whether, at my age, I need another Espansiva 

Rozhdestvensky    12:44  11:06  7:06  11:04
Schmidt              12:06  10:13  6:37   9:30
Horenstein            12:04   9:57   7:33   9:59
Saraste                 12:03   8:46   5:49   9:36
Schonwandt          11:44   9:34   6:21   9:36
Bernstein            11:37   9:50   6:26   9:28
Davis                    11:28   7:26   6:29   9:18
Gilbert                  11.24   9:12   6:36   10:03
Kuchar                11:19   9:41   6:35    9:16
Salonen               11:15   9:37   6:43  10:22
Chung                 11:07  10:00  6:41    9:17
Berglund               11:00   8:21   6:19   9:33
Frandsen             10:55   8:05   6:04   8:47
Bostock               10:37   9:14   6:14   9:39
Blomstedt             10:35   9:07   6:21   9:18


Sarge

Salonen I see is a favorite. I don't think I've really explored his cycle in-depth even though I now own all of his Nielsen (the Flute & Clarinet Concerti disc I was missing). I would say, yes, you really should get the Oramo (if you can get it for a good price --- it's BIS after all). Very impressive performance that I think you would enjoy.

And, Jeffrey, I have yet to sit down and listen to that concerti disc from Gilbert. I suppose I'm so disgusted with his symphonic cycle that I just can't bring myself at the moment to listen to it. I'll let some more time elapse before digging into it.

[Sergeant Rock]

Salonen I see is a favorite. I don't think I've really explored his cycle in-depth

He was my way into the Fourth. It was the one Nielsen symphony that had eluded me for years. Then I read a very negative review of Salonen's by Robert Layton in Gramophone. He couldn't stand Salonen's mannerisms, his flexible way with the rhythm, deploring the agogic distortion. Now Layton was one of the few critics who never let me down. When he hated something it was a guarantee I'd love it. So, on his "advice" I bought it, and it finally clicked. The Espansiva is as good. 

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

He was my way into the Fourth. It was the one Nielsen symphony that had eluded me for years. Then I read a very negative review of Salonen's by Robert Layton in Gramophone. He couldn't stand Salonen's mannerisms, his flexible way with the rhythm, deploring the agogic distortion. Now Layton was one of the few critics who never let me down. When he hated something it was a guarantee I'd love it. So, on his "advice" I bought it, and it finally clicked. The Espansiva is as good. 

Sarge

Sounds like I really need to listen to Salonen soon. Yeah, I don't think I've ever agreed with Layton either, but I haven't read too many of his reviews.

[Sergeant Rock]

Actually, of all the Espansiva's I own, the only ones I really dislike are Blomstedt and Gilbert (and even Gilbert has some redeeming qualities: magnificent horns in the first movement; that Allegretto). I'm not overly thrilled with Schonwandt either but have to admit his climactic waltz is fun. The bass is so prominent it sounds like giant trolls dancing. (Do they have trolls in Denmark, or is that just Norway?  )

Sarge

[Brian]

I gotta say, as a longtime Sakari Oramo detractor/unenthusiast, his cycle has made me seriously question my previous attitudes. That, and the as-good-as-it-ever-gets Elgar First.

If Salonen's Fourth is on Sony, I'll try to give it a listen on NML later. That sounds pretty fun.

[Sergeant Rock]

Sounds like I really need to listen to Salonen soon. Yeah, I don't think I've ever agreed with Layton either, but I haven't read too many of his reviews.

Layton may be before your time. He was fired from Gramophone when the original owners sold the magazine. When did that happen, late 90s? He is an expert on Scandinavian music (he translated the Tawaststjerna biography of Sibelius) but his reviews were usually helpful only if I ignored his recommendations and bought the things he disliked. At least that was the way it worked twenty, thirty years ago. I'm a bit more open-minded today 

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I gotta say, as a longtime Sakari Oramo detractor/unenthusiast, his cycle has made me seriously question my previous attitudes. That, and the as-good-as-it-ever-gets Elgar First.

Okay, you and John have convinced me. I'll order, at least, the disc with the Espansiva.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Chung's one of my favorites. I own these. Favorites in bold. Oramo I haven't heard. Still debating whether, at my age, I need another Espansiva 

Rozhdestvensky    12:44  11:06  7:06  11:04
Schmidt              12:06  10:13  6:37   9:30
Horenstein            12:04   9:57   7:33   9:59
Saraste                 12:03   8:46   5:49   9:36
Schonwandt          11:44   9:34   6:21   9:36
Bernstein            11:37   9:50   6:26   9:28
Davis                    11:28   7:26   6:29   9:18
Gilbert                  11.24   9:12   6:36  10:03
Kuchar                11:19   9:41   6:35    9:16
Salonen               11:15   9:37   6:43  10:22
Chung                 11:07  10:00  6:41    9:17
Berglund               11:00   8:21   6:19   9:33
Frandsen             10:55   8:05   6:04   8:47
Bostock               10:37    9:14   6:14   9:39
Blomstedt             10:35    9:07   6:21   9:18

Today was my first-ever listen to Lenny in the Espansiva, Sarge, and I can certainly see it being a favorite.  Remind me of some of the things you listen for in the magnificent Op.27?

[Karl Henning]

Today was my first-ever listen to Lenny in the Espansiva, Sarge, and I can certainly see it being a favorite.  Remind me of some of the things you listen for in the magnificent Op.27?

Apart, I mean, from Blomstedt being nowhere near it    0:)