Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[North Star]

The Korngold similarities are superficial.  Star Wars is much more original than people are giving it credit for aside from superficial touches like woodwind swooshes and swashbuckling.

There certainly are superficial similarities.
https://www.youtube.com/v/V47enEvsafQ

[relm1]

There certainly are superficial similarities.
https://www.youtube.com/v/V47enEvsafQ

Yes, that is the superficial similarity.  Find a parallel to anything like Imperial March (other than the march rhythm),  force theme, Yoda's theme, Boba Fett's theme, Jaba's theme, etc.  The harmonic treatment in JW is very sophisticated and is an amalgamation of his classical + pop background growing up in the 1940's.  So yes, you'll hear Prokofiev, Korngold, but also Benny Goodman, Bernard Herrmann (the anti-Korngold), and others of that era.  This is similar to all artists in that they are an amalgamation of the things they are exposed to and that resonated with them.  Like Mahler taking songs (or the funeral march of the fireman) from his neighborhood and incorporating them into his symphonies.  You see the same in Sibelius in that he took Tchaikovsky as a springboard to much more original material but rather than ignoring the Russian influence, he made it unique to him by incorporating the Finnish legends and speaking rhythms, etc.  One could say in a superficial way that Sibelius copied Tchaikovsky but that is a disservice to how unique and influential he was.  Same with John Williams and what is said about his stylistic link to Strauss, Elgar or Korngold.

[Scion7]

Wow - that this piece of piffle has gone on for 32 pages on the forum is amazing.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

There is this interesting website which compared leitmotives from Ring to the motives in Star Wars, for ex. the main theme has certain similarities with Siegfried's theme. The pointed similarities with the plot elements are most likely a result of the fact that there is only relatively limited amount of completely original storylines and thus some similarities are bound to happen. The same probably applies to musical themes.

http://brebru.com/musicroom/musicians/wagner/starwars.html

[relm1]

Wow - that this piece of piffle has gone on for 32 pages on the forum is amazing.

Aahh, the irony of this post...nah too easy.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

The Korngold similarities are superficial.  Star Wars is much more original than people are giving it credit for aside from superficial touches like woodwind swooshes and swashbuckling.

Rather more than superficial imho - this very topic was recently brought up in the LA Times http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-blurred-lines-classical-notebook-20150314-column.html

[relm1]

Rather more than superficial imho - this very topic was recently brought up in the LA Times http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-blurred-lines-classical-notebook-20150314-column.html

Wow, terrible to use a photo of John Williams for that article.  Not very fair.  Is this true:

'Do we really want the courts telling us that we had no right to "Star Wars'" music? John Williams all but lifted the core idea of his soundtrack score from the Scherzo of Erich Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp Minor, written 25 years earlier. In music, lifting need not be plagiarizing; it can be elevating.'

This writer lacks credibility with a statement like that.

[Ken B]

Wow, terrible to use a photo of John Williams for that article.  Not very fair.  Is this true:

'Do we really want the courts telling us that we had no right to "Star Wars'" music? John Williams all but lifted the core idea of his soundtrack score from the Scherzo of Erich Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp Minor, written 25 years earlier. In music, lifting need not be plagiarizing; it can be elevating.'

This writer lacks credibility with a statement like that.

Well the thing is, nobody here is relying on his credibility. They are relying on their own ears. So the writer could be Hillary Palin and it wouldn't matter.

[mc ukrneal]

Well the thing is, nobody here is relying on his credibility. They are relying on their own ears. So the writer could be Hillary Palin and it wouldn't matter.

Strange, he's usually accused of stealing from Holst. Who cares anyway - the music is brilliant.

[Karl Henning]

Strange, he's usually accused of stealing from Holst.

You realize how weak that gambit is

[mc ukrneal]

You realize how weak that gambit is

In all honesty, if I gather up the names he's been accused of stealing from in this thread...well, there must be like over 20. And to make matters more confusing, it's the same piece! In any case, it seems strange to me that he invokes such strong negative passion. Even with those few composers I dislike, I wouldn't waste so much time talking about that.

[Karl Henning]

In all honesty, if I gather up the names he's been accused of stealing from in this thread...well, there must be like over 20. And to make matters more confusing, it's the same piece! In any case, it seems strange to me that he invokes such strong negative passion. Even with those few composers I dislike, I wouldn't waste so much time talking about that.

I see your point, and understand your mild exaggeration.  I'll furnish examples later.

Not saying that will convince you one way or another, but it will illustrate.

[Ken B]

I think it's clear enough he "used" the Korngold, and made some modifications. I think the modifications make the music more appropriate for the movie.

[Karl Henning]

I think it's clear enough he "used" the Korngold, and made some modifications. I think the modifications make the music more appropriate for the movie.

And I suppose that was the thing to do, if he could not write his own 

[amw]

Interestingly, Williams mentioned that he tried to compose Star Wars in a manner of Richard Strauss.

From the bits of the soundtrack that are audible on the web (i.e. without the film), that definitely makes a lot of sense. The main theme is definitely 'in the manner of' Strauss, esp Don Juan (with the flatted 7ths by way of Korngold, he loved those) but of course rounded off into neat little periods, which Strauss would never have done as a regular four-bar rhythm would have bored him, and most likely us, to death. Then there are other bits that are 'in the manner of' Mahler perhaps, or Wagner, or The Planets, ominous bits 'in the manner of' Walton when he's pretending to be modern, jaunty bits 'in the manner of' Shostakovich's best agitprop. (Even a bit of the 1st symphony's opening stuffed into the 'Imperial March' >.>) I should say Williams is an above-average pastichist—certainly not in Rochberg's class, but slightly better than a musicologist.

[mc ukrneal]

I see your point, and understand your mild exaggeration.  I'll furnish examples later.

Not saying that will convince you one way or another, but it will illustrate.

Examples would be welcome, because it is otherwise a he-said, she-said and the conversation simply flounders around as it has at least in the most recent part of this thread.

[Karl Henning]

Examples would be welcome, because it is otherwise a he-said, she-said and the conversation simply flounders around as it has at least in the most recent part of this thread.

Useful also, because you can then agree that my point is a matter of music, and not of mere passion   

[Sergeant Rock]

Strange, he's usually accused of stealing from Holst. Who cares anyway - the music is brilliant.

I agree with you, Neal. I think the score is great, a deliberate and brilliant throwback to the golden age of Hollywood. But it's also apparent he borrowed from many composers, and not only Korngold (Stravinsky, Walton, Holst, etc.). One of the fun things about the music is playing Spot the Composer while listening to it.

Examples would be welcome...

Here's one from Korngold. Starts at 18:02 (a minute and a half into the Scherzo)

https://www.youtube.com/v/JEgrnh0yjaw


Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

I agree with you, Neal. I think the score is great, a deliberate and brilliant throwback to the golden age of Hollywood. But it's also apparent he borrowed from many composers, and not only Korngold (Stravinsky, Walton, Holst, etc.). One of the fun things about the music is playing Spot the Composer while listening to it.

Here's one from Korngold. Starts at 18:02 (a minute and a half into the Scherzo)

https://www.youtube.com/v/JEgrnh0yjaw


Sarge

I do like that piece! But how would you characterize it? Is it stealing? Is it hommage? Do you think Williams transforms the ideas being claimed to have come from others? Does being similar to the style of past/other composers lessen the originality? And what is the degree of 'borrowing' one can do before it goes 'too far'? These aren't questions aimed at you per se, but I suspect that our answers would be a bit closer compared to those who are lesser fans (how else to say this nicely? ) of his music.

[Karl Henning]

Absolutely a matter of my opinion, and maybe no one else will agree with me . . . but (tangentially) an example where I feel Williams did work which is 75% excellent.

The big unison horn tune in Indiana J. and the Temple of Doom:  the first three phrases are strong, beautiful, rich in character, great contour.  And the fourth phrase is, meh.  And meh is a heckuva way to end, because that modulates all that came before.

I know, I know:  everyone else loves it.  Chalk it up to my personal musical eccentricity.