Alfred Schnittke (1934-1998)

[Mirror Image]

After being in DSCHland for so long, and lately listening to both the VCs, I was massively put off by Schnittke's VCs just now, how interesting. I was going with VC4, and I was rolling my eyes at all the editing and cut and paste and so forth, whilst, of course, at the same time enjoying just the aural spectacle (Kremer/Teldec). But, with DSCH's VC2H was


oh, sheeet, I just accidentally Deleted everything, oh well,

DSCH = beautiful

Schnittke = bitter and ugly



I also compared Penderecki's VC1, which seemed like a middle ground almost, although it's exhausting in its relentlessness, and very monolithic. The two Russians are much more colourful. But DSCH is purely musical, whereas Schnittke, well,...maybe I just don't approve, mmm. maybe I think he panders?


I mean, I  certainly like listening to this kremer set, it sounds great, so, you know, it's all good, I'm just being critical.

carry on (Benny Hill)

I don't believe Schnittke's violin concerti are among his best works (actually far from it). Violin Concerto No. 4 is as gimmicky as Tippett's Symphony No. 4 where there's some kind breathing involved in the music and this is just a terrible idea altogether. The Viola Concerto and Cello Concerti 1 & 2 are his masterpieces as far as concertante works go IMHO. I also like the Concerto for Piano and Strings a lot as well. Anyway, I could have saved you the trouble and told you to avoid those VCs.

[Mirror Image]

That is not the Gogol Suite, but rather another suite that Rozhdestvensky assembled based on some of Schnittke's film music.

Ah okay. It's great fun nevertheless.

[CRCulver]

Violin Concerto No. 4 is as gimmicky as Tippett's Symphony No. 4 where there's some kind breathing involved in the music and this is just a terrible idea altogether.

I believe the heavy breathing in the EMI recording of the Fourth Violin Concerto was Kremer's idea. Schnittke's instructions for the work direct the violinist to offer a more well-rounded visual interpretation of his plight. It would be nice if we got a performance on DVD (or even a simple TV rip uploaded to YouTube) to see how well that works.

[Mirror Image]

I believe the heavy breathing in the EMI recording of the Fourth Violin Concerto was Kremer's idea. Schnittke's instructions for the work direct the violinist to offer a more well-rounded visual interpretation of his plight. It would be nice if we got a performance on DVD (or even a simple TV rip uploaded to YouTube) to see how well that works.

Yes, but it still sounds gimmicky to me.

[lescamil]

Yes, but it still sounds gimmicky to me.

That gimmick is not Schnittke's, but is Kremer's thing. Schnittke instructs the violinist to perform a "visual cadenza" with no sound (in the score: "improvvisando simile [after an ad libitum section with no specified pitches], poco a poco senza suoni ma molto appasionato (CADENZA VISUALE!)") and the pitch is gradually added back in later on the open G. It would not come out in recording well, so Kremer thought he probably had to do SOMETHING to compensate.

Here is an interpretation:

https://youtu.be/FmABJjJLRMU?t=5m54s

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Cross-posted from a thread I created:

Schnittke's PEER GYNT








[All photographs taken from http://christianerdmann.blogspot.com/2012/02/x-x.html]



The ballet Peer Gynt has already been labeled by some as Alfred Schnittke's masterpiece. Written for American choreographer John Neumeier's adaptation of Ibsen's play, Schnittke's score is a monumental work of will -- a massive score for huge orchestra which Schnittke continued to work on even after his first major stroke in 1985. And as a collective whole, the ballet offers perhaps the best single introduction to Schnittke's music -- to his characteristic sound-world and gestural vocabulary, to his famous "polystylistic" approach, and to his larger aesthetic philosophy.

The orchestral sound of Peer Gynt is unmistakably Schnittkean. The core is composed of Schnittke's phantasmagoric "continuo" ensemble -- bells, glockenspiel, vibraphone, marimba on the one hand, and piano, harpsichord, celesta, and harp on the other; the strings constitute work's the wide, often sprawling lyric line; and the winds and brass frequently serve an emblematic Schnittkean role as demonic, menacing forces.

Stylistically, Peer Gynt is all over the map. Schnittke pays due homage to Edvard Grieg's famous precedent with the "fakes" of Act II. But on a larger level, Schnittke's ballet also constitutes a tribute to the great ballet-tradition of his own Russian heritage, from Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty and Romeo and Juliet, through Stravinsky's Firebird and Petroushka, to Shostakovich's The Bolt, and especially the particular melodic brilliance of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. Upon this scaffolding Schnittke piles yet more allusive density, from faux-ragtime (on a mis-tuned upright piano reminiscent of Berg's Wozzeck), to ruthless parodies of schlocky Hollywood film scores, to the venerable Russian choral tradition summoned by Peer Gynt's extraordinary Epilogue. Finally, Schnittke's ballet is a tour-de-force of leitmotivic associations worthy of Wagner's music-dramas, its themes returning in countless and perpetual transformations through the very last bars.

As a representation of Schnittke's aesthetic stance, Peer Gynt occupies a special position, bridging the gap between his earlier career and the work he would produce following his 1985 stroke -- after which Schnittke felt everything "must be different." Whereas the Schnittke of the 1970's and early 80's "had the sense that things outside [him]self had a specific crystalline structure," he confessed in 1988 (after finishing Peer Gynt) that "things [were] different: [he] [could] no longer see this crystalline structure, only incessantly shifting, unstable forms. -- Our world seems ... to be a world of illusions, unlimited and unending. There is a realm of shadows in it..."

It is difficult to imagine Schnittke speaking in such terms before writing Peer Gynt; the entire story of Ibsen's original play by deals with the search for reality amidst "a world of shadows," in which the greatest evils are distraction and illusion, and the will of self-discovery is constantly threatened by corruption, temptation, triviality, and betrayal. While Schnittke was always fascinated with such issues, after his first stroke these concepts seem to solidify anew. Whether the composition of Peer Gynt actually transformed Schnittke's perceptual foundations, or whether it simply offered the ideal outlet for them, the ballet is Schnittke's greatest epic of the moral and artistic shadow world.

This is best illustrated by Schnittke's and Neumeier's approach to adapting Peer Gynt from the theatrical to the balletic stage. The two conceived of the story unfolding in four Kreise, or "different spheres of activity." The first three Kreise constitute, respectively, Peer's Norway childhood, his flight into a "world of illusions," and his disillusioning return home as an adult; the fourth Kreis materializes only outside reality as the pure "sound-space" of the half-hour Epilogue. Schnittke felt that the "entire music of the ballet [was] like a preliminary stage to this last Kreis."

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

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Schnittke's Peer Gynt, for me, is easily one of the greatest works of the 20th Century. In a century that's full of stylistic evolutions, revolutions, and chaos, this work hits this listener like a ton of bricks. With all of the uncertainties, hopes, dreams, delusions, and spiritual/political demarcations, Peer Gynt speaks of its time. There are moments of absolute beauty, clanging dissonances, and heartfelt confessionals. Schnittke was a man who clearly understood the nature of our society and while he injected his music with his own humor, the music confronts the listener with harsh realities. To me, Schnittke has yet to take ahold of the classical music world as perhaps people aren't quite ready for what this music can do and for what it means.

There are virtually no other recordings available of Peer Gynt except for the excellent Eri Klas recording on BIS. It would be nice to get another recording and for this masterful ballet to get a 21st Century facelift, but it doesn't look like this is going to happen. My fingers are crossed however.



For those interested in exploring this ballet's history, I must recommend this excellent article:

http://christianerdmann.blogspot.com/2012/02/x-x.html

Oh and I'm not expecting many replies to this thread, but that's certainly okay as this is a work I felt I needed to post about. If you like Schnittke's music, then you owe it to yourself to check out Peer Gynt. This is, perhaps, one of the greatest things he's done.

[The new erato]

I was just (a couple of weeks ago) at Besseggen where the opening part of Peer Gynt with the stag's ride, as recounted to his mother, takes place. 




Pretty steep for a stag's ride, but then Peer was a consumate lier.

[Mirror Image]

I was just (a couple of weeks ago) at Besseggen where the opening part of Peer Gynt with the stag's ride, as recounted to his mother, takes place. 




Pretty steep for a stag's ride, but then Peer was a consumate lier.

Very nice! Beautiful photos, erato.

[snyprrr]

I don't believe Schnittke's violin concerti are among his best works (actually far from it). Violin Concerto No. 4 is as gimmicky as Tippett's Symphony No. 4 where there's some kind breathing involved in the music and this is just a terrible idea altogether. The Viola Concerto and Cello Concerti 1 & 2 are his masterpieces as far as concertante works go IMHO. I also like the Concerto for Piano and Strings a lot as well. Anyway, I could have saved you the trouble and told you to avoid those VCs.

i SEEM TO RECALL RAVING WHEN i FIRST HEARD IT, BUT NOW  (whoops) I believe that the Concerto Grosso No.5 is Schnittke's best overall "Violin Concerto". It's certainly free of a lot of Schnittke-isms, and must rank as one of his most experimental later works, along with things like the 4-Hand Piano Concerto. The atmosphere is one of expectant experimentation, a la late Schnittke- I don't know, I find the right word difficult,- Kremer is flying and flailing for most of the piece, much of it quite in the stratosphere.

Anyhow, this is the Schnittke that I can hear again and again,... for now, lol!!


Symphony No.6

I also took out the "correct" Chandos recording of Sym6, and I do believe I had the same feeling before on this Thread, that this is one of his best late achievements - though I don't even have Sym8, I do believe I'd prefer this to that. Anyhow, the gloom factor is quite high here, and, I have absolutely no complaints here- and the recording and performance compel one to hear all of Schnittke's cool sounds that he makes out of the orchestra.


Maybe I'll continue a little more with Schnittke whilst I wallow in this post-DSCH haze.

[Mirror Image]

i SEEM TO RECALL RAVING WHEN i FIRST HEARD IT, BUT NOW  (whoops) I believe that the Concerto Grosso No.5 is Schnittke's best overall "Violin Concerto". It's certainly free of a lot of Schnittke-isms, and must rank as one of his most experimental later works, along with things like the 4-Hand Piano Concerto. The atmosphere is one of expectant experimentation, a la late Schnittke- I don't know, I find the right word difficult,- Kremer is flying and flailing for most of the piece, much of it quite in the stratosphere.

Anyhow, this is the Schnittke that I can hear again and again,... for now, lol!!


Symphony No.6

I also took out the "correct" Chandos recording of Sym6, and I do believe I had the same feeling before on this Thread, that this is one of his best late achievements - though I don't even have Sym8, I do believe I'd prefer this to that. Anyhow, the gloom factor is quite high here, and, I have absolutely no complaints here- and the recording and performance compel one to hear all of Schnittke's cool sounds that he makes out of the orchestra.


Maybe I'll continue a little more with Schnittke whilst I wallow in this post-DSCH haze.

I think Schnittke's Symphony No. 8 is among his greatest works of any period. Sure, the later works have gloomy, introspective atmosphere to them, but I've come to love so many of these works from this period. If you're considering picking a copy of the 8th, get the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. You'll thank me later. I haven't been too impressed with Polyansky's series on Chandos, but love what he did outside of the symphonies like the Requiem and his accompaniment to Ivashkin in the CCs is just spot-on. Polyansky's Choir Concerto performance is also just breathtaking.

[snyprrr]

the 8th, get the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. You'll thank me later.

I was toying with the idea of starting a false argument with you over this by claiming the other one's obvious superiority, and blah blah,... question,- would you have fallen for it? Tee hee, I've tricked you before, lol- can you imagine the sheer epic lols- even you would be splitting stitches- c'mon, we all need some drama, mm?

Maybe it would have started with- "Holy shit, everyone knows the Klebnikov (whatever that other Chandos is) trumps Polyansky in the 8th, ehat? can't you hear right?"

Maybe not that, but, you certainly wouldn't have wanted me to sit up all night conspiring on how toSchnittke-prank you-..... well, maybe it's too cruel, you do take Schnittke a bit seriously, lol,-- but we've all been there..... oh, but it would have been delicious...


mm?






anyhow---- you seem a bit cool on the Concerto Grosso No.5?








I'm taking the Violin Concerto No.1 (1957; rev. 1963) with me tonite

[not edward]

I believe the heavy breathing in the EMI recording of the Fourth Violin Concerto was Kremer's idea. Schnittke's instructions for the work direct the violinist to offer a more well-rounded visual interpretation of his plight. It would be nice if we got a performance on DVD (or even a simple TV rip uploaded to YouTube) to see how well that works.

The premiere recording of the piece on Melodiya (with Kremer as soloist and Rozhdestvensky conducting a student orchestra) is IMO greatly to be preferred to the later Kremer recording. If you can find it on its Musica non grata incarnation, you also get the Kremer/Grindenko/Bashmet/Georgian/Smirnov recording of the piano quintet, which I'd unhesitatingly nominate as the greatest performance of any Schnittke work on record.

[asin]B000025460[/asin]

[Mirror Image]

I was toying with the idea of starting a false argument with you over this by claiming the other one's obvious superiority, and blah blah,... question,- would you have fallen for it? Tee hee, I've tricked you before, lol- can you imagine the sheer epic lols- even you would be splitting stitches- c'mon, we all need some drama, mm?

Maybe it would have started with- "Holy shit, everyone knows the Klebnikov (whatever that other Chandos is) trumps Polyansky in the 8th, ehat? can't you hear right?"

Maybe not that, but, you certainly wouldn't have wanted me to sit up all night conspiring on how toSchnittke-prank you-..... well, maybe it's too cruel, you do take Schnittke a bit seriously, lol,-- but we've all been there..... oh, but it would have been delicious...


mm?






anyhow---- you seem a bit cool on the Concerto Grosso No.5?








I'm taking the Violin Concerto No.1 (1957; rev. 1963) with me tonite

Of course, I was joking around with the 'you'll thank me later' comment. This said, I've heard the Polyansky, Rozhdestvensky, and the BIS version (forget the name of the conductor) and I still love the Rozhdestvensky and what he did with the music. I don't remember Concerto Grosso No. 5, so I'll have to plan a revisit of it soon.

[snyprrr]

Of course, I was joking around with the 'you'll thank me later' comment. This said, I've heard the Polyansky, Rozhdestvensky, and the BIS version (forget the name of the conductor) and I still love the Rozhdestvensky and what he did with the music. I don't remember Concerto Grosso No. 5, so I'll have to plan a revisit of it soon.

Enjoyed the craggy and obvious VC1,- kind of like Baby Dracula's First Opus?! creaky, odd, disjointed, a bleak melody, bare trees,...Kremer and Eschenbach probably make it sound better than it is.

Skipped to Lutoslawski/Dutilleux Cello Concertos... see Thread...hrr,hmm

[relm1]

As some of you know from another thread, I enjoy to traverse a composer's symphonic output in composition sequence and in a limited time frame (like two symphonies a day).  I find this approach can help understand the music at a deeper level by adding context and developmental evolution.  So I have been doing this with Schnittke's Symphonies and I'm struggling to get through them all.

So far:
* Symphony No. 0/Owain Arwell Hughes: Quite strong for such a youthful work.  Large scale and good development.  This shows Schnittke to be a natural symphonist and only a few stylistic hints at Shostakovitch whose shadow looms large over any 1950's Soviet composer.  In short, it seems right from the start he wanted to be individual.
* Symphony No. 1/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Chandos: Too much collage.  It had its moments by overall it drove me crazy.
* Symphony No. 2/Leif Segerstrom on BIS: Nice choral writing but this seems like too many different works being written on top of each other.  I get it, the polystylist collage was still a big deal but it is quite irritating for the listener and I doubt very challenging for the composer.  These works are very big, very loud, and not very satisfying.
* Symphony No. 3/Vladimir Jurowsky on Pentatone: Another big symphony but this one seems to have settled a bit more.  To me, this sounds someone what like Per Norgard's Symphony No. 3 (minus chorus) but now something where the ideas are congealing into more of a through-composed stream.  The polystylism is much better integrated (showing musical development).   This is probably my favorite of the early symphonies because there is clarity of intent...something is coming into focus though covered in mist.    I believe approaching this symphony in sequence shows it to be stronger version (or culmination) of what came before and maybe even the end of style.  If I had just started here, I might have dismissed how we got here.

This is harder to traverse mostly because these are overly long, clanging, and blend into each other somewhat.  I am a lover of structure which is why I can tolerate long and loud music when it comes from start to finish through a process or transformative evolution. 

So am I in for more of the same when I resume at No. 4?  Am I missing something bigger with how to approach Schnittke?  I have heard several of the sparse later symphonies and am a big fan of No. 5/Concerto Grosso No. 5(?).

[Mirror Image]

As some of you know from another thread, I enjoy to traverse a composer's symphonic output in composition sequence and in a limited time frame (like two symphonies a day).  I find this approach can help understand the music at a deeper level by adding context and developmental evolution.  So I have been doing this with Schnittke's Symphonies and I'm struggling to get through them all.

So far:
* Symphony No. 0/Owain Arwell Hughes: Quite strong for such a youthful work.  Large scale and good development.  This shows Schnittke to be a natural symphonist and only a few stylistic hints at Shostakovitch whose shadow looms large over any 1950's Soviet composer.  In short, it seems right from the start he wanted to be individual.
* Symphony No. 1/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Chandos: Too much collage.  It had its moments by overall it drove me crazy.
* Symphony No. 2/Leif Segerstrom on BIS: Nice choral writing but this seems like too many different works being written on top of each other.  I get it, the polystylist collage was still a big deal but it is quite irritating for the listener and I doubt very challenging for the composer.  These works are very big, very loud, and not very satisfying.
* Symphony No. 3/Vladimir Jurowsky on Pentatone: Another big symphony but this one seems to have settled a bit more.  To me, this sounds someone what like Per Norgard's Symphony No. 3 (minus chorus) but now something where the ideas are congealing into more of a through-composed stream.  The polystylism is much better integrated (showing musical development).   This is probably my favorite of the early symphonies because there is clarity of intent...something is coming into focus though covered in mist.    I believe approaching this symphony in sequence shows it to be stronger version (or culmination) of what came before and maybe even the end of style.  If I had just started here, I might have dismissed how we got here.

This is harder to traverse mostly because these are overly long, clanging, and blend into each other somewhat.  I am a lover of structure which is why I can tolerate long and loud music when it comes from start to finish through a process or transformative evolution. 

So am I in for more of the same when I resume at No. 4?  Am I missing something bigger with how to approach Schnittke?  I have heard several of the sparse later symphonies and am a big fan of No. 5/Concerto Grosso No. 5(?).

Why limit yourself only to the symphonies? What about the Piano Quintet? What about the concerti for cello and viola? What about Peer Gynt (although he wrote two other ballets)? Not to mention the Requiem, Faust Cantata, and the Choir Concerto. These are all works that you should explore next. I enjoy some of the symphonies (mainly the 4th, 5th, and 8th), but I don't consider these works to be the only Schnittke someone needs to hear.

[relm1]

Why limit yourself only to the symphonies? What about the Piano Quintet? What about the concerti for cello and viola? What about Peer Gynt (although he wrote two other ballets)? Not to mention the Requiem, Faust Cantata, and the Choir Concerto. These are all works that you should explore next. I enjoy some of the symphonies (mainly the 4th, 5th, and 8th), but I don't consider these works to be the only Schnittke someone needs to hear.

I already know and like those works.  I don't know the symphonies though.  My favorite is the piano quintet and viola concerto.  I also enjoy his film music quite a bit.

[relm1]

* Symphony No. 4 (+ Requiem)/Okko Kamu on BIS : I have always been fond of Okko Kamu and this is my favorite symphony so far.  I didn't catch any collage but rather tension cluster risers alternating with serene wordless semi-chorus.  The Requiem is a terrific and unique take on the material and makes a satisfying conclusion to this disc. The only disappointment was in the Requiem Credo with the poorly judged inclusion of a drum kit.   Aside from that, it is dark but not overbearing.  It would also make a good counterpart to his "In Memoriam" arrangement of the Piano Quintet.  This is a wonderful and contemplative CD.
* Symphony No. 5/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Melodiya: My favorite of his symphonies so far.  It is very inventive with a recurring theme that develops across its span.  The structure and imagination is substantial.   I notice Schnittke reinvent himself and when you consider how far he has come since Symphony No. 1, an evolution is apparent.  Each new symphony I encounter in this middle period seems to be my new favorite but this one is my current favorite. 

[CRCulver]

The only disappointment was in the Requiem Credo with the poorly judged inclusion of a drum kit.

Funny that you bemoan that. Most Schnittke fans I know personally consider the drum kit the aspect of the Requiem that makes it so memorable and effective. To hear someone criticize it is like hearing someone say that the Concerto Grosso No. 1 would be better without the tango on the harpsichord.

[Mirror Image]

Funny that you bemoan that. Most Schnittke fans I know personally consider the drum kit the aspect of the Requiem that makes it so memorable and effective. To hear someone criticize it is like hearing someone say that the Concerto Grosso No. 1 would be better without the tango on the harpsichord.

+1

This is one thing I was quite startled by when I first heard the Requiem, but then I kept replaying this section over and over again. I couldn't imagine this particular movement without the drum kit. It just wouldn't be the same or as effective.