Symphonies where the scherzo/minuet is best

[Brian]

The finale question was a very good one. But this one courts controversy! Even heresy!

Beware - for here you shall start arguments and make enemies...


I shall begin:

Beethoven 9
Dvorak 4
Martinu 4
Shostakovich 10
Prokofiev 5

[Karl Henning]

The finale question was a very good one.

I don't know.  I don't think I ever really understood that question [either].

0:)

[(poco) Sforzando]

The finale question was a very good one.

No, it wasn't. I think the best movement in LvB 9 in the slow movement in any case.

[Karl Henning]

No, it wasn't. I think the best movement in LvB 9 in the slow movement in any case.

I am inclined to agree.

[Brahmsian]

Beethoven 9

Shostakovich 10

You are my friend, regarding Beethoven's 9th.  Yet, my enemy regarding Shostakovich's 10th.    That opening movement is so amazing!

[amw]

Dvořák 8
Mahler 5
um... Myaskovsky 9 maybe
Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto? does that count?
The movement in Berwald 3 that contains a scherzo is the best, is that cheating?
I'm running out of ideas

[Karl Henning]

Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto? does that count?

I like your thought!

[(poco) Sforzando]

I will say that the scherzo of Beethoven's first Rasumufsky Quartet may not necessarily by the "best" movement in that piece, but I consider it one of his most interesting and original scherzos. It juggles 6-7 separate themes and I once found by analyzing it that it touches almost every one of the 12 key centers except for the simple subdominant. Its form is so unusual that some have described it as ABA and some as sonata form, but it doesn't seem to fit either pattern. But then the rest of the quartet is pretty good too, except the somewhat clunky finale.

Symphonies where the scherzo/minuet is best? Otherwise that's a hard one, because often the s/m is a point of lowered tension and complexity as compared to its surroundings - as in the Eroica.

[Jo498]

Mahler 5
Rott E major
Dvorak 6 (first and last mvmts are too indebted to Brahms)
maybe Schumann 3 but the 2nd movement is not a typical scherzo and I still prefer the first and the "Cologne Cathedral" (4th)
in Beethoven's first symphony the menuetto (it's actually a scherzo) might be the most "Beethovenian" of the four but I still would not prefer it to the first mvmt.

I don't know enough 20th century symphonies well enough, so I run out of candidates... My favorite post-Mahler symphony is only in Three Movements.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The Queen Mab scherzo in Berlioz's very uneven Romeo and Juliette. But the Love Scene is at least its equal.

[Sergeant Rock]

Havergal Brian Symphony No.1 "Gothic" (third movement Vivace)

Hans Rott Symphony in E Major

Dvorak Symphony No.4 D minor


Sarge

[Brian]

The Queen Mab scherzo in Berlioz's very uneven Romeo and Juliette. But the Love Scene is at least its equal.

Every time you mention the Queen Mab scherzo - which is wonderfully often - I go and listen to it 3 or 4 times in a row. Boston/Munch now. It's a little miracle.

Maybe it's my taste in scherzos, but many "Mendelssohnian" scherzos qualify for this thread. Mendelssohn's Scottish, most of the Raff symphonies, and since you provisionally expanded the discussion to chamber music, the scherzos are often my favorite parts of Mendelssohn quartets/trios/octet.

But Berlioz may have set the gold standard.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Every time you mention the Queen Mab scherzo - which is wonderfully often - I go and listen to it 3 or 4 times in a row. Boston/Munch now. It's a little miracle.

I think I'll do the same right now.

[Ken B]

What next, a thread "Symphonies where the pauses between movements are the best part"?

Schnittke has it locked up.

[Gurn Blanston]

Since this can be nothing other than an opinion question, my favorite movement of the Eroica is the scherzo, so since it is one of my top 3 symphonies, I guess that'll be it.   

[Jo498]

Maybe it's my taste in scherzos, but many "Mendelssohnian" scherzos qualify for this thread. Mendelssohn's Scottish, most of the Raff symphonies, and since you provisionally expanded the discussion to chamber music, the scherzos are often my favorite parts of Mendelssohn quartets/trios/octet.

I like Mendelssohn's scherzos but I hardly ever think they are the best movement from a multi-movement work. If this is the case there is usually "something wrong" with the other movements... Would you really say that the short and light scherzo from Mendelssohn's Scottish is better than the first movement of that piece?

Mahler 5 is an exception because the massive scherzo is mediating between the tragic first two and the more lightweight last two movements. Rott's scherzo is the best because it's the most "Mahlerian" and the other movements are flawed.

[Wanderer]

What next, a thread "Symphonies where the pauses between movements are the best part"?

Ah, if only 4′33″ were a symphony...

[Karl Henning]

What next, a thread "Symphonies where the pauses between movements are the best part"?

Schnittke has it locked up.

Not Turangaganglia?

[Ken B]

Not Turangaganglia?

Good point. Good point size too.

[Brahmsian]

Since this can be nothing other than an opinion question, my favorite movement of the Eroica is the scherzo, so since it is one of my top 3 symphonies, I guess that'll be it.   

Well, it is an adrenaline rush, to be sure!    I love the contrast between the weighty, deep Funeral March 2nd movement followed by a fast and furious performance of this scherzo.  It's brilliant!