What is the 'composer's intention?'

[Monsieur Croche]

There was mentioned that words and music mix well, and that had me thinking on a pedantic sort of hair-splitting between mix and blend in music.

Words can and do work well in combination with instruments, that is imo only if the words are sung or at the least intoned, like the slightly sung sprechgesang. [I think spoken word and music together are almost completely at odds with each other, and mix no better than oil and water.]

When there is sung text, even in another language, the sound of what we recognize as words, and from the human voice, completely shifts the focus for almost every listener on the planet; the words will always be heard in the fore, the instrumental music with the word no longer in the foreground, no matter how forceful or present.

When words are set to be sung, it is the text which is of paramount concern to the composer setting it, the music a reinforcement and accompaniment, at least whenever the words and singing are involved.

The [minor] distinction between words and music working well together is then that sung words do not literally 'mix' in a vocal-instrumental texture like, say, an oboe and a clarinet playing together.

[James]

I don't think words and music 'mix well.' They can and do work well in combination, that is only if the words are sung or at the least 'intoned,' like the slightly sungsprechgesang. [I think spoken word and music together are almost completely at odds with each other, and mix no better than oil and water.]

When there is sung text, even in another language, the sound of what we recognize as words, and from the human voice, completely shifts the focus of almost every listener on the planet, the words always in the foreground, the music, no matter how forceful or present, not in the foreground.

I'm being pedantic here, of course, making the distinction between words and music working well together, and thinking they literally do not 'mix,' like, say, an oboe and a clarinet playing together.

What 'you' think, and what the reality is are 2 different things quite clearly. You're being far too simple minded.

[aukhawk]

It seems quite apparent to me, that in the case of opera for example, the music is badly compromised by the need to support, to illustrate, the libretto.

[(poco) Sforzando]

It seems quite apparent to me, that in the case of opera for example, the music is badly compromised by the need to support, to illustrate, the libretto.

What is quite apparent to one is not quite so apparent to another. Are we to believe that Wagner, Verdi, Handel, Mozart, Puccini, Strauss, Berg, et al. spent all or a significant part of their careers engaging in an activity that would badly compromise their own music?

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Being able to set words to music is a skill, something where careful attention to the notes and words on the page need to not necessarily detail the action, but be able to provide hints at what moods and atmosphere the story needs. The fact that words are there in cunjunction with the music provides a more concrete solution as to what moods and atmospheres the music may be conveying.

[some guy]

I think it may be time for a non-vehicular theory of music.

Of language, too, why not?

[knight66]

What is quite apparent to one is not quite so apparent to another. Are we to believe that Wagner, Verdi, Handel, Mozart, Puccini, Strauss, Berg, et al. spent all or a significant part of their careers engaging in an activity that would badly compromise their own music?

Then there is Bach....and Schubert. Heck.

Mike

[Madiel]

It seems quite apparent to me, that in the case of opera for example, the music is badly compromised by the need to support, to illustrate, the libretto.

You say "badly compromised". I say it provides parameters, and the truth is most artists do their best, most ingenious work when they have to operate within parameters rather than just having free rein to do anything they wanted.

Not that I like opera, I just think the notion that the libretto "compromised" the music has things backwards as to what existed when.

[Florestan]

It seems quite apparent to me that some people are badly in need of Music History 101.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

It seems quite apparent to me that some people are badly in need of Music History 101.

I start next month...first lecture is on a Tuesday according to my timetable.

[Monsieur Croche]

I start next month...first lecture is on a Tuesday according to my timetable.

Within some universities, those music history courses can be far less satisfying and worth far less to you if they have been tempered / tailored to do practical double duty of satisfying course requirements in general 'elective humanities' credits for all undergraduates, regardless of their major.

If the course you are about to take is open only to music majors, you should be fine. At that, for a beginning college student with the background you already have, don't be surprised if some of those uni level music history courses for music majors seem to you more than a little cursory and less than complete.


Best regards.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Within some universities, those music history courses can be far less satisfying and worth far less to you if they have been tempered / tailored to do practical double duty of satisfying course requirements in general 'elective humanities' credits for all undergraduates, regardless of their major.

If the course you are about to take is open only to music majors, you should be fine. At that, for a beginning college student with the background you already have, don't be surprised if some of those uni level music history courses for music majors seem to you more than a little cursory and less than complete.


Best regards.

It's music majors only. And the focus is pretty much just baroque and classical periods for this semester.....which is very useful because those are the centuries I know the least about in terms of the repertoire and the other historical kind of stuff.....the music theory and analysis part of this music with regard to the style and trends and changes in approach to composition that happened in these centuries, well I think I have most of that down pat....but I'll see how I go and I am hoping to fill my brain with as much new knowledge as I can get my hands on.

And I'll bring my little recording device to record the lectures as I sleep through them

[Hilltroll73(Ukko)]

Music History should, of course be simply a matter of dates. In 101, composers' b&d dates. In subsequent classes, the dates of compositions may be delved.

If one wanders away from dates, it ain't History. Battle of Hastings, eh? Spanish Armada, what ho.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Music History should, of course be simply a matter of dates. In 101, composers' b&d dates. In subsequent classes, the dates of compositions may be delved.

If one wanders away from dates, it ain't History. Battle of Hastings, eh? Spanish Armada, what ho.

And what about cultural influences on style and technique in composition?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Music History should, of course be simply a matter of dates. In 101, composers' b&d dates. In subsequent classes, the dates of compositions may be delved.

If one wanders away from dates, it ain't History. Battle of Hastings, eh? Spanish Armada, what ho.

Jesus wept.

[Monsieur Croche]

Music History should, of course be simply a matter of dates. In 101, composers' b&d dates. In subsequent classes, the dates of compositions may be delved.

If one wanders away from dates, it ain't History. Battle of Hastings, eh? Spanish Armada, what ho.

Ha Haaaa Haaaaa.  Good one, Hilltroll.. a throwback to rote larnin' and don't let the students go askin' any questions ;-)

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Ha Haaaa Haaaaa.  Good one, Hilltroll.. a throwback to rote larnin' and don't let the students go askin' any questions ;-)

Obviously I'm too young to recognise Victorian methods of teaching when I see it.

[Monsieur Croche]

Obviously I'm too young to recognise Victorian methods of teaching when I see it.

That rote method, in one degree of manner or another, was still the practice in many a Western school system until the mid 20th century!

Ah, the things one picks up along the way when reading history. ;-)


Best regards.

[Hilltroll73(Ukko)]

That rote method, in one degree of manner or another, was still the practice in many a Western school system until the mid 20th century!

Ah, the things one picks up along the way when reading history. ;-)


Best regards.

History as a school subject, shallow as it may have been, was pretty extensive during my childhood. World history, Vermont history, American history - in that order. Vermont history was from an ancient, beat-up textbook, but it was the least mangled of the three, I think.

Battle of Hastings, 1066. No mention was made of the aftermath. Spanish Armada, 1688. No mention was made of the origin of the Black Irish.

[Florestan]

Spanish Armada, 1688.

You mean 1588, right?

History is so much fun when one has curiosity and a good world atlas.