Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[drogulus]

Yes, but you are talking about what he would have to do to somehow get along.

     President Sanders won't go it alone, not because of something about him, it will be something about President, like they can't do that.

I'm talking about what I expect he will do.

     If he's elected he will serve, if he serves he'll try to get Congress to go along. That's what I expect. I also expect he won't get much of what he wants, because Congress won't just hand it to him, and no charm offensive can alter that much. I object to the notion, for which there's no evidence, that Sanders will be particularly intransigent because of his socialism, paleo as it seems to be.

[Pat B]

You´re wrong. I was actually expecting Clinton to be the answer. 

Apparently, Sanders´ record is his best kept secret: three people who seem to be well informed about American politics nominated him as a rigid ideologue. Once again, that is not my fault.

No, they said he was more of a rigid ideologue than Clinton or Trump, which is a non-statement since Clinton and Trump's ideology is limited to their perceived path of least resistance. That is different than your concept of "changes his mind according to the reality he has to face." The latter requires leadership, not just a sense of which way the wind is blowing at the moment. Clinton was spineless on the Iraq War, supporting it when it was popular, then opposing it when it was unpopular. Trump abandoned a boatload of his previous positions for the Republican primary and will undoubtedly change them after the convention, not as adaptations to a new reality, but for political expedience in the general election. Romney caught heat 2012 when his advisor compared running for President to shaking an Etch-a-Sketch. I consider myself moderate, but I see nothing admirable in being a wind puppet.

And again, if you had included Cruz in the question, you would have gotten a different answer.

I don't think any of the other three have done anything like Sanders's negotiation on the VA reform bill.

[Johnll]

My question too. Cruz is a weapon grade shit-weasel, he would win any "who is the most f****-up" question you cared to pose, and yet he was left off the list. Curious omission. 

Shame we still living in the Trump style huffie and puffie I am ever so toughie world. Maybe someday it will travel to the plant unseen.

[Todd]

Yes. I mentioned that several pages back. Republicans, consciously or not, seem to want somebody who is incapable of governing.

Incapable is the wrong word.  Some Republicans consciously want someone who will, in domestic matters only, contribute to gridlock, inefficiency, and partisanship. 

I don't think any of the other three have done anything like Sanders's negotiation on the VA reform bill.

True.  Sanders is reasonably principled - he adheres to the wrong principles, but that's a different issue - whereas Clinton and even more so Trump are more like weathervanes.  Cruz strikes me as a true-blue conservative, and one who will resort to any tactic to achieve his goals.

[Gurn Blanston]

Shame we still living in the Trump style huffie and puffie I am ever so toughie world. Maybe someday it will travel to the plant unseen.

I'm afraid that element will always be there, though, because it is basically a part of human nature which can't be nurtured or legislated out. This latest "I'm going to have my supporters show up at your rallies" rhetoric is right out of 1930 Munich. Not to be overly dramatic about it, but we better be damned careful where our support goes, or we might all be in a world of shit before the thinkers are done thinking about it. 

[drogulus]

     It's a rare example of utter falsehood to posit that Repubs are acting on a "bad government is good government" model or "no government is blah etc". Given the overwhelming priority of sticking it to the Kenyan Socialist by sticking it to America, the plausible explanation is that Repubs understand that bad government is bad government, and that's the only explanation that fits their strategy. If they were doing good by their own lights, they'd have to stop before any good was done. But see, they know that there's no danger of any accidental good.


   

[Gurn Blanston]

     It's a rare example of utter falsehood to posit that Repubs are acting on a "bad government is good government" model or "no government is blah etc". Given the overwhelming priority of sticking it to the Kenyan Socialist by sticking it to America, the plausible explanation is that Repubs understand that bad government is bad government, and that's the only explanation that fits their strategy. If they were doing good by their own lights, they'd have to stop before any good was done. But see, they know that there's no danger of any accidental good.

That's certainly what I think, and have done since the period between Obama's election and his inauguration, when they came right out and said this is what they were going to do. At least they weren't liars...

[Pat B]

Incapable is the wrong word.  Some Republicans consciously want someone who will, in domestic matters only, contribute to gridlock, inefficiency, and partisanship.

Maybe that's how it looks in Oregon. In Texas, where the Senate is now run by an angry-Christian talk radio host and the governor panders to the Jade Helm Conspiracy crowd, it would be a bit optimistic to think that gridlock is their goal.

ETA: I almost forgot about the AG who has been indicted for securities fraud.

[Gurn Blanston]

Maybe that's how it looks in Oregon. In Texas, where the Senate is now run by an angry-Christian talk radio host and the governor panders to the Jade Helm Conspiracy crowd, it would be a bit optimistic to think that gridlock is their goal.

ETA: I almost forgot about the AG who has been indicted for securities fraud.

Roger, roger roger... I had that thought later on, that maybe Oregonians aren't subjected to the sort of gloating bullshit that we are here, in the land of the anti-Obama cement head. My congressman (Gohmert) comes right out and brags about it on local news.

[Todd]

Maybe that's how it looks in Oregon.

How it looks here in Oregon is that Democrats are incapable of managing anything properly.  Democrats have held the governorship since admitted child rapist Neil Goldschmidt was elected in 1986.  (I should be fair though, his admission came only years later, long after the statute of limitations had passed, and even then he claimed he had had a "relationship" with the at the time 13 year old girl - he was in his mid-30s at the time.)

Some recent highlights of the governance of the Democratic party here in Oregon include, but are not limited to: pouring money into the $175 million Columbia River Crossing project to select a bridge design to cross the Columbia and failing to do that - the Commission, among other things, forgot to consult the Army Corps of Engineers and Coast Guard to make sure the selected design met federal requirements; spending $350 million on Cover Oregon, to comply with the ACA, and deploying a web-site that enrolled exactly zero (0) people; Governor John Kitzhaber resigned last year, shortly after reelection, due to corruption involving his girlfriend; unelected Governor Kate Brown, within just the last two weeks, sent a written request to the Oregonian newspaper asking it to retract an editorial about how her administration is acting with inappropriate secretiveness regarding state energy policy; and Oregon's high school graduation rate stands at a mighty 76%.  Go Team D! 

How could anyone possibly want to see Republicans obstruct the effective, beneficent, their-heart-is-in-the-right-place Democratic party?  I mean, it is the party of good governance.

(Now, it is true, the Republicans have controlled one state house or the other from time to time since 1986, so I guess it's probably all their fault.)

Oregon does have its share of far right nuts, too.  It might be a good thing to have at least one of them achieve a position of influence.  They could not possibly do worse no matter how hard they tried. 

[drogulus]

     

an angry-Christian talk radio host

     For a moment I thought I'd read "anti-Christian talk radio host". As if....

     

My congressman (Gohmert) comes right out and brags about it on local news.

     Let me try that on......my Congressman (Gohmert)...... what he don't get is how you pack people together like sardines and they turn into liberals. Texas is transforming right out from under him. I saw some of it when I went back and ordered "N.Y. pizza". A decade earlier I ate pizza in Texas and it was awful. Now I go back and my dad takes me to his hangout, the Big Apple Cafe in Ft. Worth where he says they have the real thing and oh my yes, it's totally Nassau County pizza! A little piece of the Enlightenment flourishes far from home base.

     

     Dems can govern badly. It even happens from time to time. But as long as Repubs can't govern goodly, they're out of the running. I would say the present extinctionist trend is to a great extent about exactly that.

[drogulus]

      In Massachusetts we frequently elect Repub governors as a counterbalance to a one party Dem legislature. I should mention, though, that a Massachusetts Repub is one of the out of date kind. We haven't had a worthless clod Repub since Ed King roamed the earth.

[(poco) Sforzando]

it's totally Nassau County pizza!

Are you from Nassau, drogulus? I grew up in Nassau myself and now live in Suffolk.

[drogulus]

Are you from Nassau, drogulus? I grew up in Nassau myself and now live in Suffolk.

    I lived in Levittown as a teenager, prime pizza years, spent a few years in Suffolk (Rocky Point), and ended up in the Boston area.

    Bolshevik propaganda from Bloomberg Business:

    How Local Politicians Scuttled a Crucial Federal Bridge Upgrade

[(poco) Sforzando]

    I lived in Levittown as a teenager, prime pizza years, spent a few years in Suffolk (Rocky Point), and ended up in the Boston area.

No kidding. I'm a graduate of Island Trees High School myself.

[Todd]

Bolshevik prop,aganda from Bloomberg Business:

Oh, holy shit, 'Metro' politics has made its way to GMG.  Drogulus, your absolute ignorance of the Portland area's regional politics is coming into play.  You really ought not to type even one more letter, let alone word.  You have not one clue about what you are writing.  Metro is "elected", but almost no one in the Portland area gets it.  It literally excludes Washington State (ie, Clark County, Washington), so therefore, despite its pretensions, it is undemocratic.  Portland area politicians pushed hard, and still push hard, for an integrated, interstate transportation solution, but Washington politicians push back.  How dare they, right?

(As it happens, I personally knew one person who literally died for Metro's expansion plans about twenty years ago.  But that's progress, and all that.  Right?)

[Madiel]

It literally excludes Washington State (ie, Clark County, Washington), so therefore, despite its pretensions, it is undemocratic.

Eh?

I don't think democracy means what you think it means. And I say that as someone who lives near a border. It doesn't mean "I'm affected, so I get a vote".

Inter-jurisdictional cooperation is undoubtedly a helpful thing when one lives near the boundary between two jurisdictions, but the lack of cooperation doesn't make something undemocratic.

I mean, I don't get to vote for the President of the United States despite the potential impact on my part of the world.

[Todd]

Inter-jurisdictional cooperation is undoubtedly a helpful thing when one lives near the boundary between two jurisdictions, but the lack of cooperation doesn't make something undemocratic.

The voters of Clark County, Washington have repeatedly voted against Metro expansion.  At what point does a 'no' vote matter?  ''Never'', is the proper answer to the left, because the left hates democracy.  (Like drogulus, you don't let your absolute ignorance on the subject get in your way.)

I mean, I don't get to vote for the President of the United States despite the potential impact on my part of the world.

And thank goodness for that.  Your input literally doesn't matter at all.  You are not American.  Your 'voice' doesn't matter at all, just like the 80% of Norwegian voters who opposed Bush in 2004 didn't matter.  You get that, right?  Australia as a whole is less important than one rural county in Mississippi.

[Madiel]

The voters of Clark County, Washington have repeatedly voted against Metro expansion.  At what point does a 'no' vote matter?  ''Never'', is the proper answer to the left, because the left hates democracy.  (Like drogulus, you don't let your absolute ignorance on the subject get in your way.)


And thank goodness for that.  Your input literally doesn't matter at all.  You are not American.  Your 'voice' doesn't matter at all, just like the 80% of Norwegian voters who opposed Bush in 2004 didn't matter.  You get that, right?  Australia as a whole is less important than one rural county in Mississippi.

The deep irony in the two parts of your response is fascinating. You're very eager to tell me how I don't matter because I'm not in America, but if someone says that the voters of Clark County don't matter because they're not in Oregon, look out!

[Johnll]

I'm afraid that element will always be there, though, because it is basically a part of human nature which can't be nurtured or legislated out.

This huffie and puffie stuff is not me nor I suspect the nature of the great majority of people on this earth. This comes from you and please do not try to associate it with mankind. All of us like our ego and other organs to squirt. We all enjoy the pleasure money provides. But I believe our shared human nature alerts us that while pursing these pleasures hurting others, including bulling, is wrong. I must assume yours does too even though we both know we have prisons full of those who ignored that voice.
I can remember a society light years ago when America was shocked (or pretended to be) by Goldwater's "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice" statement. American civil discourse ended two decades ago when the Pharisee style 'Christian" bullying poison start from the Right. It is actually a shame since there is occasional merit to some positions expressed by Trump along with the I want to be Nero stuff.