The Great American Symphony

[Heck148]

I honestly didn't care much for Bernstein's performance of Diamond's 4th and neither did the composer apparently

When I was in School, David Diamond came up for Hanson's Festival of American Music, IIRC...he participated in some discussions and convocations with faculty and students - very feisty personality, quite prickly...he certainly had definite ideas about all sorts of matters...
Bernstein certainly had his own mind as well - of the two, I'll take Lenny over Schwarz, there's way more drive and energy...Schwarz is OK, a good account, but Lenny puts it across better, IMO.

[Mirror Image]

When I was in School, David Diamond came up for Hanson's Festival of American Music, IIRC...he participated in some discussions and convocations with faculty and students - very feisty personality, quite prickly...he certainly had definite ideas about all sorts of matters...
Bernstein certainly had his own mind as well - of the two, I'll take Lenny over Schwarz, there's way more drive and energy...Schwarz is OK, a good account, but Lenny puts it across better, IMO.

Yes, Diamond does come across as a bit of a difficult personality, but his opinion is just as valid as Bernstein's or any conductor who has performed his music.

Sure, yeah, Bernstein is good in most of what he conducts, but I think Diamond's 4th needs a softer touch and Bernstein's interpretation is just too heavy-handed. I'll agree that the third movement needs more drive, which Schwarz doesn't quite deliver, but the first two movements seem to have a better ebb-and-flow to them in Schwarz's performance.

[relm1]

very feisty personality, quite prickly...he certainly had definite ideas about all sorts of matters...

More please...

[Karl Henning]

Sure, yeah, Bernstein is good in most of what he conducts, but I think Diamond's 4th needs a softer touch and Bernstein's interpretation is just too heavy-handed.

The key, I think, is Lenny honestly explaining to Diamond that that isn't how he feels it.  As a composer, I entirely empathize with Diamond's "but that's not what I mean by it";  as a conductor (in even my small way), I also empathize with Bernstein's point . . . to make good music, the conductor needs an understanding of the piece.  Diamond was obviously in his right to say (in effect) you understand it wrong, but there may not be a simple switch the conductor can throw, so that he understands the piece in another (even the composer's own) way.

As in so much in life, it's a bit of a tangle, and the available choices may not have been [doing it as it was done] VS. [doing it as Diamond meant], but [doing it as it was done] VS. [the conductor feeling he cannot do it].  As it is, one sees the composer's point, that the piece was "mis-represented";  on the other hand, the piece as a result did get (that dreaded word) Exposure.

[Mirror Image]

The key, I think, is Lenny honestly explaining to Diamond that that isn't how he feels it.  As a composer, I entirely empathize with Diamond's "but that's not what I mean by it";  as a conductor (in even my small way), I also empathize with Bernstein's point . . . to make good music, the conductor needs an understanding of the piece.  Diamond was obviously in his right to say (in effect) you understand it wrong, but there may not be a simple switch the conductor can throw, so that he understands the piece in another (even the composer's own) way.

As in so much in life, it's a bit of a tangle, and the available choices may not have been [doing it as it was done] VS. [doing it as Diamond meant], but [doing it as it was done] VS. [the conductor feeling he cannot do it].  As it is, one sees the composer's point, that the piece was "mis-represented";  on the other hand, the piece as a result did get (that dreaded word) Exposure.

Sure, there's no denying that Bernstein helped make a name for Diamond whether the composer was happy with the results or not is beside the point at this juncture as more performances were soon to follow and, again, give way for Diamond's music so the concert-going public will be be able to hear, otherwise, a still relatively unknown composer.

[jochanaan]

No time to read the whole thread, so perhaps these have been mentioned, but among the greats I will add Persichetti's Symphony #6 for Band (I've played that one) and Hovhaness' Symphonies #2 "Mysterious Mountain" and #50 "Mount Saint Helens."

[James]

you attempt to posit an absolute that does not exist. "musical history", "where things came from" are subjective, not objective...

History and what artists have done & left behind is subjective? Are you for real? These things are tangible, real .. totally exist. Well documented. My opinion did not will them into existence. My opinion has nothing to do with this at all actually.

How an individual responds to particular music is probably the only real "standard", and that is definitely subjective...nor does your sounding forth your own individual opinion.

Again, your or my personal response in these matters has nothing to do with it. Someone may claim that they respond more strongly to say Taylor Swift than Beethoven but that doesn't change things or make it better than what it is.

no, you have voiced your own individual opinion, which to this point, is completely unsubstantiated or supported...there is nothing factual or clear about anything you've posted...

It's not my opinion. You need some serious education. You will not find much to support what you are saying. You believing that these largely inessential American symphonies are truly "great" ("equal or better") than the best that have ever been written is delusional.

[James]

In essence, you are right.  When James states his opinion, he seems genuinely to believe that his opinion is Universal Artistic Truth.  He genuinely believes that, when you offer what any reasonable adult would regard as a divergent opinion, you simply were not paying attention when he pronounced The Truth unto you.  James's discussion, then, is not any matter of intelligent adults exchanging ideas, and benefiting from another perspective;  it is James trying to get all youse idiots to understand the Truth he's laying down here.  FOR OUR BENEFIT, PEOPLE!  Show a little appreciation, jeeze . . . .

Another lost soul ..

[Scion7]

William Schuman's 3rd symphony is as essential and important in its own area/nook of Classical music as is, say, Brahms' 2nd symphony in that portion of the Classical music spectrum - and, yes, it ranks as a 'great symphony.'

[James]

William Schuman's 3rd symphony is as essential and important in its own area/nook of Classical music as is, say, Brahms' 2nd symphony in that portion of the Classical music spectrum - and, yes, it ranks as a 'great symphony.'

Nope. Classical music would have been just fine without the American's 3rd Symphony. He's not a great composer. And trying to put Schuman up there with Brahms is ridiculous. I'm sure Schuman himself would have shaken his head at even the thought.

[Scion7]

Pats James condescendingly on his little head.

[James]

Pats James condescendingly on his little head.

I like how you tried though .. resorting to such verbal jive as "its own area/nook of Classical music" ...  lol

[Scion7]

After the way you embarrassed yourself over on the Alan Holdsworth thread, mate, I'm surprised you continue to post anywhere - true megalomania.

[James]

After the way you embarrassed yourself over on the Alan Holdsworth thread, mate, I'm surprised you continue to post anywhere - true megalomania.

Weak.

[Karl Henning]

After the way you embarrassed yourself over on the Alan Holdsworth thread, mate, I'm surprised you continue to post anywhere - true megalomania.

Something else, indeed.

[Heck148]

History and what artists have done & left behind is subjectiv

Really not interested in your spewage here....You've not contributed a single worthwhile post to this thread.

one has only to look at how various composers' reputations and standings have risen and fallen over periods of time to see how subjective the whole business really is...to deny this is simply foolish.

[Heck148]

Nope. Classical music would have been just fine without the American's 3rd Symphony.

an utterly ignorant premise...Music "would have done just fine" without Brahms #2, Beethoven #5, Mozart #39, etc, etc...

I doubt that you've even heard Schuman Sym #3...

[Karl Henning]

an utterly ignorant premise...

Ah, I see you've met James!  That dull click you hear from time to time on this thread is the sound of a mind snapping shut.

[Heck148]

Ah, I see you've met James!  That dull click you hear from time to time on this thread is the sound of a mind snapping shut.

right - he seems to be the type that manages to subtract from the sum total of human intelligence every time he opens his cyber-yap... 

[kishnevi]

Nope. Classical music would have been just fine without the American's 3rd Symphony. He's not a great composer. And trying to put Schuman up there with Brahms is ridiculous. I'm sure Schuman himself would have shaken his head at even the thought.

Schuman would have done so because of humility.