Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Todd]

But still I don't believe that that inaccuracy hurt my argument, I think my point still stands regardless.

You made several points.  I will quickly examine just one:

"The problems that the united states has are not rooted in some rigged financial inconsistencies and inaccuracies. The problems are reminiscent of how all Great Empires of old have lost their way and influence and in the end simply disappeared. Assyria, Greece, Babylon, Persia and Rome all were Mighty and powerful empires with vast lands and enormous worldwide reach. But they all crumbled from within because their morality was eroded and when a nation lives a life of abominations and profanities it simply losses its right to exist, as simple as that."

This appears to be a false equivalency.  While I agree that the US acts as an imperial power, or more accurately a global hegemon, I think the lessons that can be learned from antiquity are limited.  First, the method of US imperial power is largely legalistic and economic in nature.  The US can lose its sway overseas, but given the massive economic power of the Unites States, which it primarily domestic in nature, it is difficult to envision any scenario where weakening influence over other powers leads to the disappearance of the US or its lack of consequence in world affairs.  Second, current security arrangements for many powers have the US and its hefty nuclear arsenal at the center.  There will be an interest for other powers to see the US maintain at least some semblance of influence and power for decades to come.  Third, and most important, I maintain that you are using the wrong imperial models.  The British Empire is a better analog.  As the Pax Americana fades over this century, and perhaps into the next, the US will almost certainly not cease to exist; rather, it will become relatively less powerful, comparatively less rich (when compared to other powers; it will stay rich), and it will still be protected by two oceans and a sizeable nuclear arsenal.  So what if China rules the East and a unified, forceful EU rules Europe (don't laugh!)?  The US will be fatter and maybe a little less happy.  The average Briton today is better off in many ways than the lords of the Victorian era.  Americans of the 22nd Century may not have the same relative improvement in material well-being, but I doubt they'll be suffering a whole lot.  (This assumes the apocalyptic sufferings to be caused by global warming will be less than apocalyptic.)

I've yet to see a convincing argument that morality plays a significant role in maintaining power.  At its peak, Rome was an empire.  It relied on slave labor.  It relied on actual blood sport for entertaining the masses.  Pederasty was no big deal.  Yet Roman power lasted for centuries.  Maybe if MMA becomes bigger than the NFL or NBA I should start worrying.  But I'm of the mind that economic and strategic matters are more important to the maintenance of national and/or imperial power. 

Egypt in many ways is Africa.

Incorrect.

[Brian]

I've yet to see a convincing argument that morality plays a significant role in maintaining power.

I think Saul must subscribe to the old myth about how Rome lost control of the world because they were too busy having orgies.

[28Orot]

You made several points.  I will quickly examine just one:

"The problems that the united states has are not rooted in some rigged financial inconsistencies and inaccuracies. The problems are reminiscent of how all Great Empires of old have lost their way and influence and in the end simply disappeared. Assyria, Greece, Babylon, Persia and Rome all were Mighty and powerful empires with vast lands and enormous worldwide reach. But they all crumbled from within because their morality was eroded and when a nation lives a life of abominations and profanities it simply losses its right to exist, as simple as that."

This appears to be a false equivalency.  While I agree that the US acts as an imperial power, or more accurately a global hegemon, I think the lessons that can be learned from antiquity are limited.  First, the method of US imperial power is largely legalistic and economic in nature.  The US can lose its sway overseas, but given the massive economic power of the Unites States, which it primarily domestic in nature, it is difficult to envision any scenario where weakening influence over other powers leads to the disappearance of the US or its lack of consequence in world affairs.  Second, current security arrangements for many powers have the US and its hefty nuclear arsenal at the center.  There will be an interest for other powers to see the US maintain at least some semblance of influence and power for decades to come.  Third, and most important, I maintain that you are using the wrong imperial models.  The British Empire is a better analog.  As the Pax Americana fades over this century, and perhaps into the next, the US will almost certainly not cease to exist; rather, it will become relatively less powerful, comparatively less rich (when compared to other powers; it will stay rich), and it will still be protected by two oceans and a sizeable nuclear arsenal.  So what if China rules the East and a unified, forceful EU rules Europe (don't laugh!)?  The US will be fatter and maybe a little less happy.  The average Briton today is better off today in many ways than the lords of the Victorian era.  Americans of the 22nd Century may not have the same relative improvement in material well-being, but I doubt they'll be suffering a whole lot.  (This assumes the apocalyptic sufferings to be caused by global warming will be less than apocalyptic.)

I've yet to see a convincing argument that morality plays a significant role in maintaining power.  At its peak, Rome was an empire.  It relied on slave labor.  It relied on actual blood sport for entertaining the masses.  Pederasty was no big deal.  Yet Roman power lasted for centuries.  Maybe if MMA becomes bigger than the NFL or NBA I should start worrying.  But I'm of the mind that economic and strategic matters are more important to the maintenance of national and/or imperial power. 


Incorrect.

Greece and Rome were destroyed because they were busy themselves with profanities and abominations. As they say money comes and goes but if you're aint a mench you're in deep trouble. Yes the fall may take a while but one end meets them all. But enacting saintly laws, just, and having a strong family nucleus full of good family values is the best insurance for success and survival. But nations disappear when families lose their ways.

[Madiel]

What the book of Job had to do with this?

It has to do with you thinking that rich people are rich because God has blessed them.

I don't have time to unpick all the rest of your reply to me several pages back, especially not when using my iPhone, but it's the same terrible theology that seems to run rampant in some parts of the USA. It's utterly not Biblical because the Bible pokes holes in it several times, including the entire Book of Job, and yet lots of Chtistians seem to think that rich people are good and poor people have done something wrong.

[28Orot]

It has to do with you thinking that rich people are rich because God has blessed them.

I don't have time to unpick all the rest of your reply to me several pages back, especially not when using my iPhone, but it's the same terrible theology that seems to run rampant in some parts of the USA. It's utterly not Biblical because the Bible pokes holes in it several times, including the entire Book of Job, and yet lots of Chtistians seem to think that rich people are good and poor people have done something wrong.

I will explain this later on... busy with work now...

Its much complicated and deeper then your over simplification of the book of Job...

[Ken B]

What is your objection to that teaching?

Oh dear lord.

[Brian]

Oh dear lord.

[Karl Henning]

Doth not the Lord, when He is pleased with thee, shower loot upon thee?

[28Orot]

I will explain this later on... busy with work now...

Its much complicated and deeper then your over simplification of the book of Job...

There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: wealth kept by its owner to his harm. Ecclesiastes 5:13

King Solomon is saying that yes wealth can be a blessing but it can also be a curse. Bernie is a false prophet because he preaches that the financial success of men is his ticket for a great and enjoyable life which is a bogus and unfounded claim. If money was the cure you wouldn't have so many miserable rich people.

As for Job, its rather a philosophical discussion that has to do with reincarnation. No where it says that if you are good you will be wealthy, with wealth comes a separate blessing which says that God will make you or cause you to use the wealth he bestowed on you with wisdom to your everlasting success and joy. Riches without God are worthless, as for the case of Greece and Rome. Uniformity is also a great disease, there will be always those who are wealthy or poor, but these are not always blessings nor curses but tests that every person depending on his destiny must take.

Job was the reincarnation of Abrahams Father, he was an idol worshipping pagan who sold idols, he had a rebellious son who discovered the One True God of the Universe. At the end of his life Terach did repent but that was not enough to erase all his sins, so he was put back on this earth as Job and given all these punishments as a means to cleanse him from his grave transgressions.

The book of Job is a classic book that deals with reincarnation, the unrelenting confusion as to why the just suffer and the wicked prosper, it goes along to say that there is a calculation up there in Heaven that does not always meet the eyes of men. When someone is poor in this world and he seems like a very good individual and he lives next to a very wicked individual who happens to be very wealthy, for some people this seems very unjust, why should the saintly suffer and the wicked prosper?

Well, if they understood that sometimes a person needs to be poor in this world to atone for his past transgressions and that sometimes a wealthy person is given so much money just so that he will be forever cast away from God, just like the snake who was given his livelihood wherever he goes in the form of dust, dust is a very common thing , he can find his food wherever he may be, but he will never have any connection to God anymore, completely cut away from him. That so called wealth is 10 times folds a greater curse then been poor, cause a poor person can still have a relationship with God and can achieve great things, not so the wealthy wicked. This is not to suggest that there are no good people that are both wealthy and saintly, and the reason they are wealthy can be a blessing without a doubt, but as I said, everyone has their own way of worshipping God, whether with limited resources or an abundance of resources. All of this attests to the fact that there is a planner and a ruler in this world and everything is done with calculation and merit with thought and reason, while false prophets like Bernie try to disrupt this suggesting that there is no higher power that controls everything, and that men alone can achieve success without God having anything to do with it. That dark path has been tried many times to dire and awful consequences.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, the two great evils in the world, politics and religion, are now blended into one (screwy) thread. If we are going to have a religion thread, then lets move it to a religion thread. We can try to maintain the philosophical purity of the anti-Trump & Hilary thread here, please. Both at once is killing me...

[28Orot]

Well, the two great evils in the world, politics and religion, are now blended into one (screwy) thread. If we are going to have a religion thread, then lets move it to a religion thread. We can try to maintain the philosophical purity of the anti-Trump & Hilary thread here, please. Both at once is killing me...

I don't accept the premise that religions and politics are evil, it is people who skew them, but as for themselves they are not evil...

[Ken B]

I don't accept the premise that religions and politics are evil, it is people who skew them, but as for themselves they are not evil...

Moot. Most people here are badly skewed.

[28Orot]

Moot. Most people here are badly skewed.

lol

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, the two great evils in the world, politics and religion, are now blended into one (screwy) thread. If we are going to have a religion thread, then lets move it to a religion thread. We can try to maintain the philosophical purity of the anti-Trump & Hilary thread here, please. Both at once is killing me...

Must you always spoil the fun?

[28Orot]

Must you always spoil the fun?

Yea what can be more fun and engrossing then politics and religion?

Hooray!

[Brian]

Yea what can be more fun and engrossing then politics and religion?

Hooray!

This thread is truly the family reunion dinner table of the internet.

[(poco) Sforzando]

This thread is truly the family reunion dinner table of the internet.

We are indeed the original dysfunctional family.

[Todd]

Yea what can be more fun and engrossing then politics and religion?

Orgies.

[28Orot]

Orgies.

I was speaking of things that one can actually do on the internet and that is chat.
Orgies besides the fact that they are gross, can't be physically possible to do over the web...

[Karl Henning]

Orgies.

Thank God you didn't say football.