Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Karl Henning]

Who here actually has muslim FRIENDS? Just curious.

Here.

[Sergeant Rock]

Who here actually has muslim FRIENDS? Just curious.

My best friend at Ohio U was Muslim. I teased him about his loving and eating pepperoni pizza. After I retired from the Army I worked for four years for a German transportation company that employed mostly Muslims (of the 60 on my shift, 90% were Turks). There were several I considered more than just colleagues.

Sarge

[Madiel]

I interact with them practically every day, also speak some Arabic.
They can be the best people in the world, have strong family values, are hospitable, the women are modest (don't cuss like some of their liberated sisters in the West), are appreciative students, etc.

The main problem in my opinion is cultural shock, mainly coming from imposed ideology (re: certain politicians who thought to give "freedom" to the masses no matter how much it cost us and them) and unrealistic views of life outside their own environment via TV ("Bold and Beautiful", etc.)and films, most of which are hedonistic trash. Women on the whole are restricted in dress and movement, so you can imagine the guys going wild when they get to Europe seeing girls on the street wearing shorts.

There is also the recent phenomenon of the born-again who reject completely the freedoms (self-regulation that they don't completely understand since they are used to force from outside) and what they see as corruption coming from the West. As for the sex-crazed films and TV programs, they do have a point.

I can't help noticing your Muslims all fit within a certain kind of Muslim stereotype.

The first 3 Muslim friends I thought of were girls from Bangladesh and India and an Anglo-Celtic woman who converted when she married. Not one of them was "restricted in dress" as far as I can see.

[zamyrabyrd]

I can't help noticing your Muslims all fit within a certain kind of Muslim stereotype.
The first 3 Muslim friends I thought of were girls from Bangladesh and India and an Anglo-Celtic woman who converted when she married. Not one of them was "restricted in dress" as far as I can see.

You're wrong, AGAIN!
The restrictions are in their home countries. Unmarried girls (like with Orthodox Jews) can pretty much wear anything they want. Otherwise, when married women go outside they need to have head coverings. Sharia is a step higher which means practically everything except for the face needs to be covered.

[Madiel]

In Which country are the Muslims you are interacting with every day? Are all their home countries the same?

Even your comment about speaking Arabic... There are a hell of a lot of Muslims for whom Arabic is not their native tongue. It's a bit like saying you know all about all Roman Catholics because you can speak some Latin.

[Florestan]

It's a bit like saying you know all about all Roman Catholics because you can speak some Latin.

This analogy is false.

Translation of the Qur'an has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology. Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text should not be isolated from its true form to another language or form, at least not without keeping the Arabic text along with.

...

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in Quranic Arabic. Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original.

(emphasis mine)

A truly devout Muslim needs Arabic in order to correctly understand the Quran.

In contrast, no truly devout Roman Catholic needs Latin in order to correctly understand the Bible.

[zamyrabyrd]

A truly devout Muslim needs Arabic in order to correctly understand the Quran.
In contrast, no truly devout Roman Catholic needs Latin in order to correctly understand the Bible.

Thank goodness there is one informed person here on this subject.
Many dialects comprise "Spoken Arabic" over the vast geographical areas from Morocco in the West to Iraq in the East. Egyptian, for example has different constructions, pronunciation and vocabulary than Syrian-Jordanian-Palestinian which all have local variants, like for instance, Lebanese, Bedouin (which is more Saudi).
The Latin analogy does apply in the sense that Arabs are joined by their knowledge of the Classical Arabic (Fus-ha) of the Quran. Latin used to be that universal, yet basic, learned language in Europe. "Communication Arabic" used in news and official documents is somewhere in between because obviously there could not be words for computer and telephone but is understood throughout the Arab world. 
The Quran is virtually untranslatable. So much of its meaning (and beauty, too) is embedded in the language. This is yet another instance in which East doesn't meet West, a gap as large as the Grand Canyon.

 

[Madiel]

This analogy is false.

(emphasis mine)

A truly devout Muslim needs Arabic in order to correctly understand the Quran.

In contrast, no truly devout Roman Catholic needs Latin in order to correctly understand the Bible.

I actually know all this but didn't feel like going into the detail while typing on a phone. But it doesn't change the fact that Arabic is not the NATIVE language of many Muslims. It's not their language of everyday speech. That was my point. The fact that many Muslims learn Arabic to read the Quran doesn't cause them to then speak Arabic in their daily lives, otherwise the official language of places like Indonesia would be Arabic.

Unless Zamyrabyrd is studying the Quran with these Muslims, the Arabic of Quran isn't relevant. A generic description of cultural practices of native Arab speakers is NOT applicable to all Muslims.

[Madiel]

Besides, for many centuries the Roman Catholic Church was very firmly of the view that you did need to know Latin.

Remind me which one us is an informed person?

[zamyrabyrd]

Besides, for many centuries the Roman Catholic Church was very firmly of the view that you did need to know Latin. Remind me which one us is an informed person?

Please refer to my post as Latin being a "learned Language" in Europe, for the educated classes and clergy. Quranic Arabic does join together non-Arabic speakers of the Moslem world. Knowing some conversational Arabic is getting a foot in the door, better than not.

[André]

Coincidentally (I guess it's in the air these days), a La Presse feature today attempts to decipher/deconstruct/demythify the Arab vs Muslim conundrum. Barely 20 % of Muslims speak/hail from the Arabic countries. IOW, is the Western World against Arabs or against Muslims ?  Wait... Not the same thing ? Even within Arab countries  there are christian, jewish and other religious  minorities, some hailing back to 2000-2500 years back. Same with Iran or Turkey, which are NOT arabic countries.

It seems that "Islam"/"islamic" is the moniker that 'sticks'. When the Western World is done with its hatred of anything 'arabic' , it looks like it will have to turn its enmity to another 1 billion people.

What next ?

[zamyrabyrd]

Coincidentally (I guess it's in the air these days), a La Presse feature today attempts to decipher/deconstruct/demythify the Arab vs Muslim conundrum. Barely 20 % of Muslims speak/hail from the Arabic countries. IOW, is the Western World against Arabs or against Muslims ?  Wait... Not the same thing ? Even within Arab countries  there are christian, jewish and other religious  minorities, some hailing back to 2000-2500 years back. Same with Iran or Turkey, which are NOT arabic countries.
It seems that "Islam"/"islamic" is the moniker that 'sticks'. When the Western World is done with its hatred of anything 'arabic' , it looks like it will have to turn its enmity to another 1 billion people. What next ?

Exactly! That is why it is stupid to call anything critical of Islam, "racist".

[snyprrr]

My question is: unless you want to challenge the claim that large numbers of people are crossing these waters, what is the point of spending such a large amount of time discussing whether or not a particular photo is a carefully composed image or a lucky snap?

Or is being photographed in a staged fashion some new criterion for rejecting refugee status that's been added to the Convention while I wasn't looking?

And why have you fallen hook line and sinker for this total distraction that was lobbed into the thread, as if one photograph could possibly destroy the integrity of an entire newspaper?

Please help me out here.

I had to go alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way down to the library to check this for us all, because, yes, I think it's important. So, please please please someone get the front pic from AUGUST 30 NYT up on here, so you can see what I saw.

I getz me sum tyred of luukin krazee round heare


LOL- if it's not the same pic, I will get the paper from the libr and mail it... sorry ,long day, .....


please?!!



And if what I said was true, what do I get, a cookie? A real one, not a GMG Cookie, please!!!!

[Sergeant Rock]

Please help me out here.

I had to go alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way down to the library to check this for us all, because, yes, I think it's important. So, please please please someone get the front pic from AUGUST 30 NYT up on here, so you can see what I saw.

I already posted it. Three days ago. You didn't see it?

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24159.msg995661.html#msg995661



Sarge

[drogulus]

     Giant cruise ship makes historic voyage in melting Arctic Liberal Hoax

     

[André]

I interact with them practically every day, also speak some Arabic.
They can be the best people in the world, have strong family values, are hospitable, the women are modest (don't cuss like some of their liberated sisters in the West), are appreciative students, etc.

The main problem in my opinion is cultural shock, mainly coming from imposed ideology (re: certain politicians who thought to give "freedom" to the masses no matter how much it cost us and them) and unrealistic views of life outside their own environment via TV ("Bold and Beautiful", etc.)and films, most of which are hedonistic trash. Women on the whole are restricted in dress and movement, so you can imagine the guys going wild when they get to Europe seeing girls on the street wearing shorts.

There is also the recent phenomenon of the born-again who reject completely the freedoms (self-regulation that they don't completely understand since they are used to force from outside) and what they see as corruption coming from the West. As for the sex-crazed films and TV programs, they do have a point.

There's a distance you won't travel. Tolerate them, associate in some common activities, but not mingle with them, let alone welcome the differences you note, unless they intersect with some of your own values. I can certainly understand that. It takes time, which means probably more than a generation, for differences to eventually become just another fact of life.

In our day care system in  Quebec, there is cheap (government subsidized) day care that starts from age 0 and goes all the way to public school. In my city of Laval, Quebec (425000) there is a large maghrebine community (from Tunisia, Algeria and mostly Morocco). Men work, and women work too: many (and I mean MANY) open small day care facilities in their own homes, which allows them to tend to their own chidren and welcome 2-6 other small children. They are government registered, and pay taxes.

My 2 grandchildren have attended  (currently attend) such facilities. The first one was with "Tata Sana" ("Tata" means auntie)), and although she took good care of the children, she could be pricky. She was quite zealous and punctilious about schedules, as well as sensitive about perceived lacks of respect - ( ). She felt free to not welcome certain children anymore because of her own standards. This is what happened to our grand daughter, and we (and our daughter) were never given any kind of explanation. It's not funny when you feel like s...t.  Especially when the issue is your own children or gandchildren.  But we didn't make a fuss about it or generalize the situation.

Then came "Tata" Turia, who welcomed our granddaughter with open arms. Same values (always wearing the hijab when answering the door), but a heart of gold, a truly caring and loving caretaker. She often cooked bread and gave sweets to take home, invited her to her own children's birthday parties, came to our house, etc. Then our granddaughter went to school and it was time for our grandson to need a day care facility when he was 6 months old. He is now almost 4 and shows clear signs of autistic problems. The social worker who is on his case went to Turia's to watch him and she mentioned how much Turia loved him and took great care of him. We can't think of a better person to take care of our grandson and attend to his special needs. Not with that kind of true affection and personal attention.

We often see hijab covered women drive around town (at least they do drive cars  ). They are quite intrepid on the road, believe me. Laval (the city where I live) is a hub for immigrants. Although not designed as such, it is a "special community" in terms of immigration, refugees, etc. They come in, settle, start working and send their children to public schools. Many do not know the language (French or English), but they work hard at it. Funding cuts are damning. Today the news was that the Laval School Board did not fill any "language immersion classes" positions for the new school year (there were 20 last year). That means hundreds of young immigrant/refugee children who do not speak a word of French or English will be integrated in the regular classes (Laval welcomed a few hundred syrian refugees this year). With no additional help and the extra attention needed, they will become a "burden" to the teachers and the other children.

This is the kind of problems we are faced with: not a question whether to welcome refugees (or other immigrants) or not - we have passed that post some time ago, especially in Quebec (because of the 1977 language laws), but how will we financially address the challenge. Every society is faced with the kind of financial problems an immigrant influx brings at one time or another, but the face we put on and how we attempt to solve the issues (positively or negatively, alla Trump) makes all the difference for future generations. My granddaughter has never given a thought to the idea that Turia's chilldren (and many others) were somehow different from her. Yes, they will be raised as Muslims. But I fancy the idea that they will be our Muslims. Not djihadists, drug dealers or rapists.

[snyprrr]

Is this the one you're talking about, snyprrr?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/30/world/middleeast/migrants-refugees-rescued-libya-italy.html




Sarge

yes, thank you, sorry no didn't see it...


So, that's not a raucously bad PhotoShop??... the "splashes" of water... the closest guy looks completely plopped in... you guys don't see a pic that locks obviously doctored?


I mean, it IS obvious, right?? Those are not real "splashes"...


Surely there is a photo expert on here.... does this need to go in the "Fav Photos" Thread??






I'm not saying ANYTHING about ANYTHING .... OTHER THAN "please just take a look at this pic, it's a PhotoShop on the front page of the NYT,... why is that?"


gosh

[snyprrr]

funny how ya'll go straiiight for the "tin foil crazy" shit ALL.THE.TIME.

No matter what it is... everything is always what we're told and any questioning must be treated with Alin s k e y taktikz. Oh yea, moon landing, jfk, 911,... oh yea,...



I keep looking at the pic fresh, just to see what you're NOT seeing, and,... yikes!!!.... every time I look, all I see is peoples' arms in obvious cut-n-paste. Are those people in the water not obviously "dubbed in"

Maybe the very very closest person, at the bottom edge of the pic, where you can definitely see someone UNDER WATER... but, come on,.... you're giving me a headache now...



Please, just respond to this picture. OK, just tell me there is ABSOLUTELY NO DOCTORING going on in this pic. Fine.




I just every.single.member. of this forum to just line right up and say, one after the other, "Nope,... I don't see anything."

[Sergeant Rock]

So, that's not a raucously bad PhotoShop??... the "splashes" of water... the closest guy looks completely plopped in... you guys don't see a pic that locks obviously doctored?

I mean, it IS obvious, right?? Those are not real "splashes"...
Surely there is a photo expert on here.... does this need to go in the "Fav Photos" Thread??

I'm not saying ANYTHING about ANYTHING .... OTHER THAN "please just take a look at this pic, it's a PhotoShop on the front page of the NYT,... why is that?"

First fact: The photo isn't even a NY Times original but shot by an Associated Press photog, Emilio Morenatti.

Second fact: Right click on the picture to enlarge. Enlarged, the splashes look real; enlarged, the men in the water don't look photoshopped to me. As further proof, I posted a link to the video of the situation It's the same as the  photo, including the splashes, the arm waving. Watch the video!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/29/dramatic-photos-show-refugees-fleeing-libya-being-rescued-at-sea

Watch the video. You can see the men in the water, see the splashing, holding up their arms. I mean, when a person is trying not to drown, splashing and arm waving are by products   Why would anyone need to fake a photo when the situation is clearly real, with video capturing the same event?

Okay, we know you have an agenda. We know you really, really want this to be fake, need this to be fake in order to prove the NY Times is part of the vast conspiracy to inundate your life with people of the wrong color:

Of course, what's shown is all the dark skinned people looking longingly into the camera with the "SaveMeEurope" look. I guess you may call it... uh... Propaganda?

Propaganda? A story and pictures of an Italian Navy rescue operation is propaganda? These people don't deserve coverage because, what?...they're the wrong color? from the wrong continent?

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

funny how ya'll go straiiight for the "tin foil crazy" shit ALL.THE.TIME.

We go straight to the tin foil crazy shit because that's where you lead us in nearly every post you make. This photoshop business is just the latest craziness. There is no reason to suspect that photo is faked. No reason in the world  it should have been faked. The only reason you believe it is faked is because you're wearing your conspiracy spectacles which color everything you see. You don't see reality, snyprrr. You only see the conspiracies. And damn, boy, you see them all!!!

Sarge