Mahler with New Ears

[Mahlerian]

since it's Mahler with new ears, why not include the Blumine as a second movement, it works in this reading.  Mahler's symphonic archetecture spawls already so I have no issues with inserting the original movement.  Some have speculated that its removal had more to do with audience impatience than with artistic judgement on the composer's part.  playing and interpretation are solid across all five movements, lucious sound.

The Blumine movement, adapted from an early bit of incidental music for a play Mahler despised, is easily the blandest thing in his output (okay, maybe the Piano Quartet, but that's not from his maturity by any stretch of the imagination).  It's not so much bad as very unexciting and it sticks out in an unpleasant way when placed next to the forward-looking first movement and the delightful pseudo-Brucknerian scherzo.

[woofer]

Love the project! Good and healthy approach.

Ah, Lintu/FRSO is already on there - very good. That was one that really made itself noticeable to my ears on first hearing.

...ah, and I see you've already got the first round behind you. Excellent description of the Lintu... although I think it's a little better than that on the way out, from after the first movement onward. But you nailed what's truly special about it.

Shame, as that's by far Boulez' worst Mahler.

Still on No.2?


How many are that young? Jaervi/Frankfurt (DVD only), Schwartz/Liverpool (someone would have to pay me to listen to that, I'm sorry to say--perhaps silly arrogance), Zander/Philharmonia (2012), Lorin Maazel/Philharmonia (2011), Mariss Jansons BRSO (DVD), Simone Young/Hamburg (ugh, another one I wouldn't listen to, if avoidable, gushing MWeb review notwithstanding), Boulez/Stakp Berlin (DVD), Stenz/Cologne, Jurowski, LPO, above-mentioned Chailly/Leipzig (DVD), the Berlin Rattle, the Jansons / RCO live, Abbado/Lucerne (DVD), Nott/Bamberg, Haitink/CSO (2008), Eschenbach/Philhadelphia (2007), Norrington/SWR (2006), Gergiev/LSO (2008) all still fit. What else?
Ozawa/Saito Kinen (2000), sadly, not.

thanks, yes I am on two and learning that my pace ought to be more like one symphony per month.  Can't really do it justice trying to sample at a rate which let's me fairly tackle one per week.  So, I will try to reach a verdict on #2 by the end of Sept.  So far Nott, Jansons, Inbal, and Simone Young have been heard.  Young's I did not last past the second movement.  Nott I enjoyed enought to make a finalist and listen too again in the process.

[woofer]

The Blumine movement, adapted from an early bit of incidental music for a play Mahler despised, is easily the blandest thing in his output (okay, maybe the Piano Quartet, but that's not from his maturity by any stretch of the imagination).  It's not so much bad as very unexciting and it sticks out in an unpleasant way when placed next to the forward-looking first movement and the delightful pseudo-Brucknerian scherzo.

I will agree that Blumine is rather lightweight - but Mahler is not immune to somewhat disjointed amalgamations is other works as well.  Hum, that's chemical oxymoron - an amalgamation is well blended.  Oh well.

[Mahlerian]

I will agree that Blumine is rather lightweight - but Mahler is not immune to somewhat disjointed amalgamations is other works as well.

Such as...?

[woofer]

well, off the top of my head, the first and second parts of the 8th don't really seem like two halfs of an integrated whole symphonic argument.  The nocturnes in the 7th are high quality but not really integral to the rest.

[Karl Henning]

well, off the top of my head, the first and second parts of the 8th don't really seem like two halfs of an integrated whole symphonic argument.

I am sympathetic to that thesis, notwithstanding the sharing of some material between the two parts.

[woofer]

Such as...?

full disclosure, I am an organic chemistry prof. not a music theorist. Other than 100 level Art of Listening to Music Course taken at U. Maine in 1980 have no formal music education. So, take my comments at whatever value you think they have to you.

[Mahlerian]

well, off the top of my head, the first and second parts of the 8th don't really seem like two halfs of an integrated whole symphonic argument.  The nocturnes in the 7th are high quality but not really integral to the rest.

The Eighth is the single most tightly integrated work in all of Mahler's oeuvre.  Every single motif in both parts is derived from the exposition of Part 1, both rhythmically and melodically.  It's not merely a matter of a few references, but rather the whole of Part 2 is an amplification of and response to the musical material of Part 1.

With the Seventh, you are correct that the inner movements do not share significant motivic material with the outer movements, but they do participate in the overall progression of the work and are of a piece in terms of character.  As with his other works, they also participate in the overall harmonic direction of the symphony, in this case from sharp keys towards the flat side, ending up in the middle with C major.

[woofer]

The Eighth is the single most tightly integrated work in all of Mahler's oeuvre.  Every single motif in both parts is derived from the exposition of Part 1, both rhythmically and melodically.  It's not merely a matter of a few references, but rather the whole of Part 2 is an amplification of and response to the musical material of Part 1.

With the Seventh, you are correct that the inner movements do not share significant motivic material with the outer movements, but they do participate in the overall progression of the work and are of a piece in terms of character.  As with his other works, they also participate in the overall harmonic direction of the symphony, in this case from sharp keys towards the flat side, ending up in the middle with C major.

Thank you, I will keep these remarks in front of me when I listen to the 8th again.

[jlaurson]

The Eighth is the single most tightly integrated work in all of Mahler's oeuvre.  Every single motif in both parts is derived from the exposition of Part 1, both rhythmically and melodically.  It's not merely a matter of a few references, but rather the whole of Part 2 is an amplification of and response to the musical material of Part 1.

With the Seventh, you are correct that the inner movements do not share significant motivic material with the outer movements, but they do participate in the overall progression of the work and are of a piece in terms of character.  As with his other works, they also participate in the overall harmonic direction of the symphony, in this case from sharp keys towards the flat side, ending up in the middle with C major.

Thank you, I will keep these remarks in front of me when I listen to the 8th again.

First of all, welcome to GMG, Woofer. And thanks for already setting off some valuable debate.

Incidentally, apart from being corrected by Mahlerian on the matter of the 8th, we probably all agree: Mahler is full of juxtaposition, clashing material, and was never afraid of going all-out with a banality or two. (And the Seventh is a prime example.)

Allow me a practical hint, meanwhile: When quoting someone, make sure your response falls outside the "[/quote]" code. That we it's easier to tell what you have written and what the others.

Cheers & best

[Mahlerian]

Incidentally, apart from being corrected by Mahlerian on the matter of the 8th, we probably all agree: Mahler is full of juxtaposition, clashing material, and was never afraid of going all-out with a banality or two. (And the Seventh is a prime example.)

Naturally, yes.  I agree with all of those things, just not with any charge of incoherence.

[Pat B]

I have used the discography you mention but it does not list separate releases for the same performance.  On Spotify for at least some of later Inbal Exton series they list alternates of multi and single mic.  So I believe there are two cycles and multiple versions of the latter?

I see what you mean -- wow! Inbal is apparently trying to catch Haitink on the "Bewildering Mahler Discography" scale.

Apparently some of the 2007-11 set (not a full cycle since there is no 9) also come in "single point" versions. Seems like they are targeting these to audiophiles, which is to say: not me. I still think his Denons sound good.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I see what you mean -- wow! Inbal is apparently trying to catch Haitink on the "Bewildering Mahler Discography" scale.

Not a chance ! No one is allowed to record and re-record Mahler as much as Haitink. Haitink is also every orchestra's favorite guest conductor for every Mahler work. I have seen him with the Boston SO, NYPO and Chicago Symphony for almost every Mahler symphony.

[woofer]

In working through various recent recordings of the Resurrection I am suffering a bit from a bias towards the recording with which I first encountered the work.  Something I believe many listeners have experienced.  When I first started collecting CDs the first Mahler I purchased was the 2nd.  I grabbed it at the time because Telarc add a reputation for high recording quality.  Slatkin is not one that would make the top dozen one would think of if compiling a list of great Mahler conductors.  However, some professional critics have though his Mahler 2 with the St. Louis SO a rather decent performance.  I wonder if this view is shared by those following this discussion.  Since it was my first exposure to Mahler and one of the first CDs in the collection I likely have burned it in to my auditory processing nueral circutitry having played it through likely 15+ times.  One thing that really strikes me about the Slatkin is how the funeral cortege halts at one point with what really sounds like a clatter of horse hooves.  This is not as apparent in many of the other readings I am going through.

[North Star]

In working through various recent recordings of the Resurrection I am suffering a bit from a bias towards the recording with which I first encountered the work.  Something I believe many listeners have experienced.  When I first started collecting CDs the first Mahler I purchased was the 2nd.  I grabbed it at the time because Telarc add a reputation for high recording quality.  Slatkin is not one that would make the top dozen one would think of if compiling a list of great Mahler conductors.  However, some professional critics have though his Mahler 2 with the St. Louis SO a rather decent performance.  I wonder if this view is shared by those following this discussion.  Since it was my first exposure to Mahler and one of the first CDs in the collection I likely have burned it in to my auditory processing nueral circutitry having played it through likely 15+ times.  One thing that really strikes me about the Slatkin is how the funeral cortege halts at one point with what really sounds like a clatter of horse hooves.  This is not as apparent in many of the other readings I am going through.

Jump in the deep end of pool, woofer - we all know you're ready - post your query in Mahler Mania, Rebooted, where more people will see it, and the future generations will find the discussion more easily. 

[woofer]

Jump in the deep end of pool, woofer - we all know you're ready - post your query in Mahler Mania, Rebooted, where more people will see it, and the future generations will find the discussion more easily. 

If a moderator wants to move the discussion to another locale that would be fine with me.  I am sure I will learn more if thrown in the deep end with the Mahlerites.

[Sergeant Rock]

When I first started collecting CDs the first Mahler I purchased was the 2nd.  I grabbed it at the time because Telarc add a reputation for high recording quality.  Slatkin is not one that would make the top dozen one would think of if compiling a list of great Mahler conductors.  However, some professional critics have though his Mahler 2 with the St. Louis SO a rather decent performance.  I wonder if this view is shared by those following this discussion.

I think it more than decent (outstanding soloists in Battle and Forrester). Although not one of my first M2s, it quickly became a favorite (in the top 5 of the 33 I own). It's a performance few here (as far as I know) have heard or commented on.

Sarge

[PerfectWagnerite]

I think it more than decent (outstanding soloists in Battle and Forrester). Although not one of my first M2s, it quickly became a favorite (in the top 5 of the 33 I own). It's a performance few here (as far as I know) have heard or commented on.

Sarge

I have it. It's been awhile since I listened to it. My recollections is that it is rather good. I would say not as intense as Mehta or Klemperer but definitely very well executed. I am not a big fan of Battle however as her voice just sounds rather out of placed in this work, but that is just me. I probably don't have 33 but might be close. I lost count yrs ago.

The first M2 and still my favorite is Bruno Walter/NYPO on SONY coupled with the 1st Symphony.

A sleeper choice is Ozawa/Saito Kinen, definitely a well-played and alert recording in great sound.

[knight66]

I am suggesting a recording that I don't think has been mentioned.

Mahler 9 Mark Elder with the Manchester Halle.

This is a live performance, it spills onto a second disc, but the cost is similar to one full price disc. There is a sense of a live event. It has more than a touch of Zen about it, especially the final movement. My favourite interpretation is Barbirolli, this is very different, less overtly passionate, but not detached. The playing is very good.

I have several of the Gergiev Mahler cycle. I like, but don't love, No 7, I did not much enjoy either No 6 or 4.

A wonderfully gripping and dramatic 6th that comes from an unexpected source is Charles Mackerras with the BBC SO. It was stuck to the front of the BBC Music magazine, but is available through Amazon UK at next to nothing. Three hammer blows, andante/scerzo. The orchestra play their socks off.

Mike

[jlaurson]

I have several of the Gergiev Mahler cycle. I like, but don't love, No 7, I did not much enjoy either No 6 or 4.

A wonderfully gripping and dramatic 6th that comes from an unexpected source is Charles Mackerras with the BBC SO. It was stuck to the front of the BBC Music magazine, but is available through Amazon UK at next to nothing. Three hammer blows, andante/scerzo. The orchestra play their socks off.

Mike

That Mackerras really was terrific; I remember it well when it came out -- I was working at Tower Records -- and I think I even have it in the marooned part of my collection. The Gergiev Cycle really isn't all that good, and the Seventh and Sixth I found particularly disappointing, expecting more from Gergiev, in the vain hope of getting something perhaps in the Kondrashin vein. The Eighth is very good with him, though, as is the Fifth, which was re-recorded last after the first attempt was such a disaster.