Beethovens ninth Symphony is absolutely jaw dropping!!!

[Cato]

Especially in this performance with Toscanini conducting "his" NBC Symphony Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/eInUqChuNaA

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

My favourite moment of the 9th is the beginning of the recapitulation in the 1st movement where—out of the blue—Beethoven surprises us with an awesome FIRST INVERSION D MAJOR chord of all things, just to shake things up.

[lisa needs braces]

My favourite moment of the 9th is the beginning of the recapitulation in the 1st movement where—out of the blue—Beethoven surprises us with an awesome FIRST INVERSION D MAJOR chord of all things, just to shake things up.

Link?

[Jo498]

The recap starts at about 8:38 in the youtube performance linked in the first post. There have been many poetic descriptions (like skies burst into flames) and a notorious "rapist" interpretation by Susan McClary of that passage. I seem to recall that in famous Furtwängler wartime performance it seems quite messy, the timpani almost drown everything, in any case the balances are off (probably some overload of the recording tech of 1942) but the sense of disaster is conveyed very well.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The recap starts at about 8:38 in the youtube performance linked in the first post. There have been many poetic descriptions (like skies burst into flames) and a notorious "rapist" interpretation by Susan McClary of that passage. I seem to recall that in famous Furtwängler wartime performance it seems quite messy, the timpani almost drown everything, in any case the balances are off (probably some overload of the recording tech of 1942) but the sense of disaster is conveyed very well.

WWII certainly were disastrous times. Thanks for the extra info on this!

[SharpEleventh]

The "Ode to Joy" melody is way overrated. Even if it does its job in the context of the piece I'm annoyed how often it is played on its own, as if it were an impressive melody in itself, rather than the quite a banal tune that it actually is.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The "Ode to Joy" melody is way overrated. Even if it does its job in the context of the piece I'm annoyed how often it is played on its own, as if it were an impressive melody in itself, rather than the quite a banal tune that it actually is.

Why hello there, I bet you'd like to say that to Beethoven's face/conversation book. Welcome to the forum ol' chum.

[zamyrabyrd]

The "Ode to Joy" melody is way overrated. Even if it does its job in the context of the piece I'm annoyed how often it is played on its own, as if it were an impressive melody in itself, rather than the quite a banal tune that it actually is.

Let's look at it this way, a melody that is used as a basis for variations tends to be simple. Not only that, Beethoven's tunes are frequently bare bones of chordal structure as in the 1st movement of the Eroica, no extra fussiness or frumpery.

I personally think that the last movement of the 9th was composed somewhat in a time warp, that would have been more in place in the revolutionary spirit at the turn of the 19th century. Schiller originally wrote the poem in 1785 but revised it in 1808, some 15 years before Beethoven used it. The sentiments are for and of the people, very democratic, so one shouldn't expect a complicated melody for the text.

[zamyrabyrd]

My favourite moment of the 9th is the beginning of the recapitulation in the 1st movement where—out of the blue—Beethoven surprises us with an awesome FIRST INVERSION D MAJOR chord of all things, just to shake things up.

Thanks for pointing this out. I looked it up here, occurring at 11:21, a bit later than other recordings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOjHhS5MtvA
The open 5ths are creepy enough. With F# as the lowest note (of the D and A), it is really unsettling.

[arpeggio]

A long time ago in a forum far, far away I submitted the following observation concerning the Ninth.

"Throughout the history of Western European Classical Music there have been seminal works that when they appeared the audience heard something completely new. Two examples of this are Wagner's Tristan and Isolde and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Beethoven appears to have accomplished this several times in his career. Along with the Ninth the ones I can think of are his Third Symphony and his late string quartets. I am sure that many can think of a few more.

I have had the opportunity to have performed the Contrabassoon in the Ninth twice with my community orchestra. This is one of the first great contrabassoon parts in the orchestra literature and by today's standards is still one of the most challenging to perform. The first time I played it I had only been playing the contra a few years and I could not cut it. After twenty years experience, I did a much better job of it last spring. With a community group one actually spends several weeks working and living with a piece. Performing the Ninth was one of the most awesome experiences in my life.

In order to understand the greatness of the Ninth one must put themselves in the audience that heard it for the first time. There are several innovations in this work including the use of a choir in a symphony. To out modern ears, after being exposed to Bruckner, Mahler and Shostakovitch, there is really nothing that earth shattering about it. For many the music is trivial and bombastic. But try to put yourself in that audience in 1824. Up until then audiences were primarily exposed to the symphonies of Haydn, Mozart and their contemporaries. I have read that Beethoven wanted to premier the work in Berlin instead of Vienna because he did not think the Viennese audience could handle it. Although the work was under rehearsed and it was a sloppy performance the audience was overwhelmed."

This was in response to a bashing Beethoven's Ninth thread.  There is a lot of bashing going on in that forum.  Not only do they bash Cage, they also like to bash Mozart.

[Florestan]

In order to understand the greatness of the Ninth one must put themselves in the audience that heard it for the first time. There are several innovations in this work including the use of a choir in a symphony. To out modern ears, after being exposed to Bruckner, Mahler and Shostakovitch, there is really nothing that earth shattering about it. For many the music is trivial and bombastic. But try to put yourself in that audience in 1824. Up until then audiences were primarily exposed to the symphonies of Haydn, Mozart and their contemporaries. I have read that Beethoven wanted to premier the work in Berlin instead of Vienna because he did not think the Viennese audience could handle it. Although the work was under rehearsed and it was a sloppy performance the audience was overwhelmed.

Hear, hear!

Great post overall!

[zamyrabyrd]

A long time ago in a forum far, far away I submitted the following observation concerning the Ninth.
"Throughout the history of Western European Classical Music there have been seminal works that when they appeared the audience heard something completely new. Two examples of this are Wagner's Tristan and Isolde and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Beethoven appears to have accomplished this several times in his career. Along with the Ninth the ones I can think of are his Third Symphony and his late string quartets. I am sure that many can think of a few more.
I have had the opportunity to have performed the Contrabassoon in the Ninth twice with my community orchestra. This is one of the first great contrabassoon parts in the orchestra literature and by today's standards is still one of the most challenging to perform. The first time I played it I had only been playing the contra a few years and I could not cut it. After twenty years experience, I did a much better job of it last spring. With a community group one actually spends several weeks working and living with a piece. Performing the Ninth was one of the most awesome experiences in my life.
In order to understand the greatness of the Ninth one must put themselves in the audience that heard it for the first time. There are several innovations in this work including the use of a choir in a symphony. To out modern ears, after being exposed to Bruckner, Mahler and Shostakovitch, there is really nothing that earth shattering about it. For many the music is trivial and bombastic. But try to put yourself in that audience in 1824. Up until then audiences were primarily exposed to the symphonies of Haydn, Mozart and their contemporaries. I have read that Beethoven wanted to premier the work in Berlin instead of Vienna because he did not think the Viennese audience could handle it. Although the work was under rehearsed and it was a sloppy performance the audience was overwhelmed."
This was in response to a bashing Beethoven's Ninth thread.  There is a lot of bashing going on in that forum.  Not only do they bash Cage, they also like to bash Mozart.

Can you point out the places for contrabassoon? Spurred on by this thread I am listening to it again with Liszt's piano transcription. All I can say is "FIE to the bashers"!!!

[arpeggio]

Can you point out the places for contrabassoon? Spurred on by this thread I am listening to it again with Liszt's piano transcription. All I can say is "FIE to the bashers"!!!

The contrabassoon only appears in the last movement.  The big contra moment occurs when the Turkish march appears.  The chorus comes to a thunderous climax and then silence.  Then one hears softly on the contra bum......bum......bum, bum, bum, bum.  Then one hears the "Ode to Joy" in the form of a Turkish March.  Marvelous.  As a contra player this is the moment in the whole symphony.  You are at the edge of your seat waiting for the conductor to give you the downbeat to start playing.  And when you start playing it is an endorphin high.

[zamyrabyrd]

The contrabassoon only appears in the last movement.  The big contra moment occurs when the Turkish march appears.  The chorus comes to a thunderous climax and then silence.  Then one hears softly on the contra bum......bum......bum, bum, bum, bum.  Then one hears the "Ode to Joy" in the form of a Turkish March.  Marvelous.  As a contra player this is the moment in the whole symphony.  You are at the edge of your seat waiting for the conductor to give you the downbeat to start playing.  And when you start playing it is an endorphin high.

I think the Kontra has some good parts in the Brahms' Requiem (see me as a little dot in the choir to the left). In the "Denn alles Fleisch", it was really impressive, sounded like a whale at times (am not being facetious).

[Jo498]

To out modern ears, after being exposed to Bruckner, Mahler and Shostakovitch, there is really nothing that earth shattering about it. For many the music is trivial and bombastic. But try to put yourself in that audience in 1824.

Sorry, but this sounds like damning with faint praise to me although apparently you did not intend this. I think almost everything by Bruckner, Mahler or Shostakovich is in more danger of appearing "trivial and bombastic" (I don't say that it is) than Beethoven's 9th, partly because Beethoven did such a great job with the first overwhelming, earth-shattering symphony. So later efforts often give the impression of "trying too hard", to lack economy of means etc.

[arpeggio]

Sorry, but this sounds like damning with faint praise to me although apparently you did not intend this. I think almost everything by Bruckner, Mahler or Shostakovich is in more danger of appearing "trivial and bombastic" (I don't say that it is) than Beethoven's 9th, partly because Beethoven did such a great job with the first overwhelming, earth-shattering symphony. So later efforts often give the impression of "trying too hard", to lack economy of means etc.

I am sorry you are completely misinterpreting what I am saying.  I am not damning the music of Bruckner, Mahler (my personal favorite) or Shostakovich.  I apologize to everyone here if they think I did so.

For Your Information my post was in response to members in another forum who were attacking Beethoven's Ninth and calling it trivial and bombastic.

[Karl Henning]

The contrabassoon only appears in the last movement.  The big contra moment occurs when the Turkish march appears.  The chorus comes to a thunderous climax and then silence.  Then one hears softly on the contra bum......bum......bum, bum, bum, bum.  Then one hears the "Ode to Joy" in the form of a Turkish March.  Marvelous.  As a contra player this is the moment in the whole symphony.  You are at the edge of your seat waiting for the conductor to give you the downbeat to start playing.  And when you start playing it is an endorphin high.

:-)

[Pat B]

The contrabassoon only appears in the last movement.  The big contra moment occurs when the Turkish march appears.  The chorus comes to a thunderous climax and then silence.  Then one hears softly on the contra bum......bum......bum, bum, bum, bum.  Then one hears the "Ode to Joy" in the form of a Turkish March.  Marvelous.  As a contra player this is the moment in the whole symphony.  You are at the edge of your seat waiting for the conductor to give you the downbeat to start playing.  And when you start playing it is an endorphin high.

That's a great moment, even for non-contrabassoonists.

[zamyrabyrd]

:-)

Follow the clarinets...

[zamyrabyrd]

The contrabassoon only appears in the last movement.  The big contra moment occurs when the Turkish march appears.  The chorus comes to a thunderous climax and then silence.  Then one hears softly on the contra bum......bum......bum, bum, bum, bum.  Then one hears the "Ode to Joy" in the form of a Turkish March.  Marvelous.  As a contra player this is the moment in the whole symphony.  You are at the edge of your seat waiting for the conductor to give you the downbeat to start playing.  And when you start playing it is an endorphin high.

Indeed, silence and downbeat! The bass notes come on the off beat, the 4 of 6/8, followed by a measure of silence, repeated again. Your bum,bum,bum,bums are still syncopated, now in every measure, joined by the clarinets for four more measures. This prepares and reinforces the accented notes of the melody also coming on weak beats. We almost begin to feel the long notes are the downbeats but Beethoven corrects our perceptions and surprises us with typical humor at the end of the phrase.
(I am not so smart. It's just I was listening recently with a piano score, prompted by this thread. It's amazing what details one misses along life's way.)