The Great American Symphony

[Mirror Image]

Curious, how are these two styles distinguished? By 'populist' do you mean like Copland's approach from around the 40s of attempting to compose music without the 'experimental' stigma attached to the treatment of pitch and harmony?

By 'Populist,' I mean writing in a style that's immediately ear-catching and accessible. For Schuman, he wrote several works written around an American 'Populist' style sort of like Copland, but still completely different and distinguishable from Copland. The 'other' Schuman is the Schuman of works like Symphony No. 9 where it's music written in a dissonant, but tonal language. My main problem with Schuman, if I may share my own personal experience, is his music has this uniform quality to a lot of the music and I mean this as a criticism not a compliment. Like, for example, I couldn't even tell you differences between Symphonies 6-9. They are seem to be striving for the same thing. His music is structurally sound and tight, but too often there aren't a lot of good ideas or ideas that lodge theirselves into my memory. It just all sounds the same. The same general atmosphere. In a way, he's like Alan Pettersson who could be criticized for writing the same piece over and over again. I'm not saying Schuman isn't a good composer, because he is, but there are only a few works of his that really stick out in my mind. Many times in his music I'm scratching my head and wondering "Where is this piece going?" My hats are off to people who can distinguish his mature symphonies from each other. I'd love to know what are the fundamental differences between Symphonies 7 & 8, for example, besides having two different titles?

[Monsieur Croche]

I'd love to know what are the fundamental differences between Symphonies 7 & 8, for example, besides having two different titles?

I'll say that there is not much of a noticeable difference in harmonic language, orchestration, or shape and contour of ideas and musical syntax between Schuman's 7th and 8th symphonies, at least no more distinct differences than one would expect to find between two Haydn symphonies having been written not so far apart in time between one and the other.  The same could be rightly said about a pair of Mozart symphonies, Brahms symphonies, several symphonic works of Rachmaninov, and then there is the bulk of Hindemith once he had codified his own music theory practice (interchangeable "Music spun by the Yard,") and that shining example of such interchangeable confusion, practically all of J.S. Bach...

that is, if one is to consider such a statement as an offense to the music lover and a legitimate complaint in trying to make a negative criticism of a composer, which I don't.

The onus, my dear colleague, upon such a facile criticism is on the listening acuity as affected by the conditioned through practice listening habits of the presenter of this particular criticism, the same responsibility for those who level exactly the same criticism about Mozart, Bach, etc.  The solution to the dilemma, just as it would be to be able to distinguish one Mozart symphony from another also written not far apart... familiarity through acquired listening, which then becomes part of the listener's listening habits.

[Karl Henning]

What are the fundamental differences between Beethoven's Symphonies 7 & 8, besides having two different titles?


As with the Schuman, they are distinct musical utterances.

[Sergeant Rock]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/our-neglect-of-this-great-working-class-british-composer-is-a-disgrace/

Thanks for the link. I was particularly pleased with his praise for Das Siegeslied, a symphony even many Brianites dislike, but one of my favorites.

Sarge

[San Antone]

Getting back to the thread's topic, after listening to it last night, I'd have to cast my vote for the Ives 4th Symphony.  It is hard to top the sheer giantness of it as well as the breadth of imagination on display.  But more than that it oozes American with every note.

A fantastic piece.

[Karl Henning]

Getting back to the thread's topic, after listening to it last night, I'd have to cast my vote for the Ives 4th Symphony.  It is hard to top the sheer giantness of it as well as the breadth of imagination on display.  But more than that it oozes American with every note.

A fantastic piece.

It was wonderful to hear that live in Symphony Hall, erewhile.

[Mirror Image]

Getting back to the thread's topic, after listening to it last night, I'd have to cast my vote for the Ives 4th Symphony.  It is hard to top the sheer giantness of it as well as the breadth of imagination on display.  But more than that it oozes American with every note.

A fantastic piece.

Ives' 4th got my vote as well. Remarkable work.

[arpeggio]

Alan Hovhaness did not compose the same symphony sixty-seven times.  He composed one symphony with over two hundred twenty-five movements. 

[arpeggio]

I have no idea who composed the Great American Symphony.  But if someone put a gun to my head I would say the Ives' Fourth.  Of course this is based on the works I am familiar with and that I am just a retired pension auditor. 

[Mirror Image]

It was wonderful to hear that live in Symphony Hall, erewhile.

Lucky! Do you remember the conductor, Karl?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thanks for the link. I was particularly pleased with his praise for Das Siegeslied, a symphony even many Brianites dislike, but one of my favorites.

Sarge

I would take the article more seriously if it didn't characterize Joseph Haydn's symphonic output as "uneven".

[Karl Henning]

Lucky! Do you remember the conductor, Karl?

I had not . . . but through the miracle of the Search function, I learn afresh that it was Alan Gilbert:

Sibelius, Rakhmaninov and Ives:Boston Symphony Orchestra, Alan Gilbert (guest conductor), Boston, 7.3.2009 (KH)

Sibelius, Night-Ride & Sunrise, Opus 55

Rakhmaninov, Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini, Opus 43
Stephen Hough, piano

Ives, Symphony № 4
Tanglewood Festival Chorus (John Oliver, conductor)
Stephen Drury, solo piano

It was a mild surprise to reflect, almost by accident, that this is an all-20^th-century program.

Sibelius draws so much color out of his orchestra, it is something of a surprise to realize that his scoring is for an ensemble scarcely any larger than that of Brahms.  While the ride through the dark here depicted is no Berliozian cours à l'abîme, the strings patter on at an energetic but controlled pace, and at the last dawn breaks with a glorious yet shifting chorale in the brass.  The orchestra were in good form, though the brass might have been more homogeneous.  Mr Gilbert paced the strings at perhaps a slightly slower tempo than he might have;  but it is an exciting piece, and the execution was true to that character.

Mr Hough acquitted himself very well in the Rhapsody;  maybe a bit dry of touch, but on the whole more engaged than the last time we heard him here at Symphony.

What a hubbub is the Ives Fourth.  Gunther Schuller (who had attended the premiere performance of the symphony in its entirety, conducted by an 82-year-old Leopold Stokowski, on 26 April 1965 at Carnegie Hall) led the first BSO performances of the symphony in 1966/67.  Before this past weekend, the only other BSO realizations of the work were with Ozawa, in 1976 and 1992.  The work requires a fair-sized orchestra, with additional brass (two cornets and six trumpets) and percussion, in particular (including tubular bells so long that the player stood up on a scaffold to play them, practically at eye-level to the first balcony), organ, solo piano, celesta, orchestral piano four-hands, optional quarter-tone piano (omitted for these performances) and "ether organ" (the St Petersburg-born Léon Thérémin gave concert demonstrations of his aetherophone in the US in 1927 — included in these performances, the Theremin mostly doubles the strings, adding something of an 'off' glint to the string-choir tone).  Oh, and four-part chorus for the outer movements.  It's a sprawling malstrøm of a piece, but the Tanglewood Festival Chorus, the Orchestra and Mr Gilbert carried it off splendidly.  (One might argue that the choral writing is as simple as a 19^th-century hymnal, but it takes grace and presence to fit it in such an 'unsteady' setting.)

Music-director designate of the New York Philharmonic (to begin his official tenure with the '09-'10 season), Alan Gilbert is a native New Yorker, and the first such to enjoy that appointment.  His concert this Saturday past was an unalloyed pleasure to witness, and I look forward to further occasions when he may be the guest of the BSO.

[Mirror Image]

I had not . . . but through the miracle of the Search function, I learn afresh that it was Alan Gilbert:

Wonderful! That's a great program, too.

[Sergeant Rock]

I would take the article more seriously if it didn't characterize Joseph Haydn's symphonic output as "uneven".

Yeah, that comment struck me as wrong-headed and unnecessary. Haydn's symphonies are only uneven in that they evince varying levels of greatness 

Sarge

[Heck148]

It was wonderful to hear that live in Symphony Hall, erewhile.

I got to hear Ives 4th many years ago, at Lincoln Center, when I was still in high school...we're talking early-mid 60s[??] with Stokowski conducting the American Symphony Orchestra...right around the time they recorded it...
Great concert - Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra, a Rorem piece, an Hovhaness work, and the Ives...
still remember it...the ASO in those days was a pretty wild outfit - great NY free-lancers really going at it...the Strauss was wonderful, a really free-swinging affair...the Ives was quite overwhelming, as I recall.

[Karl Henning]

I got to hear Ives 4th many years ago, at Lincoln Center, when I was still in high school...we're talking early-mid 60s[??] with Stokowski conducting the American Symphony Orchestra...right around the time they recorded it...
Great concert - Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra, a Rorem piece, an Hovhaness work, and the Ives...
still remember it...the ASO in those days was a pretty wild outfit - great NY free-lancers really going at it...the Strauss was wonderful, a really free-swinging affair...the Ives was quite overwhelming, as I recall.

Great time!

[PerfectWagnerite]

Yeah, that comment struck me as wrong-headed and unnecessary. Haydn's symphonies are only uneven in that they evince varying levels of greatness 

Sarge

The article also fails to explain as to exactly WHY Brian's symphonies remain so under-performed. There are other gargatuan works of the 20th century that get performed and recorded, all the time. The English is usually pretty good at promoting their own music, however second-rate they may be. So it seems as if everyone has an axe to grind with Brian, which is not true. So it is a fairly odd phenomenon.

[Karl Henning]

The article also fails to explain as to exactly WHY Brian's symphonies remain so under-performed. There are other gargatuan works of the 20th century that get performed and recorded, all the time. The English is usually pretty good at promoting their own music, however second-rate they may be. So it seems as if everyone has an axe to grind with Brian, which is not true. So it is a fairly odd phenomenon.

Well, it's tough going.  It's a bit squishy to argue that composer N.'s music doesn't ever get performed, because it must not be any good.

[ Obligatory Disclaimer:  My music hardly ever gets performed, and I hope it's good, nevertheless. ]

[PerfectWagnerite]

Well, it's tough going.  It's a bit squishy to argue that composer N.'s music doesn't ever get performed, because it must not be any good.

[ Obligatory Disclaimer:  My music hardly ever gets performed, and I hope it's good, nevertheless. ]

What IS truly unthinkable is that Brian wrote most of this in his 80s and 90s when most of us would be driveling oatmeal out of our mouths...

Anyway objectively speaking as a non-Brian fan I find his shorter symphonies pretty accessible, like #11 and #15. I would not characterize them as masterpieces but do have moments where he pits strange combos of instruments against one another.

[Cato]

I had not . . . but through the miracle of the Search function, I learn afresh that it was Alan Gilbert:

Am I mistaken in thinking that Alan Gilbert programs a good deal of contemporary music, or at least records it?