Counterpoint

[Mozart]

What exactly do you do when you listen to counterpoint? Try to mentally separate the voices, or hear it as a whole?

[Bonehelm]

What exactly do you do when you listen to counterpoint? Try to mentally separate the voices, or hear it as a whole?

Both at the same time. It is similar to listening to complex harmonies. You can seperate a chord into pieces and tell what notes are in there (e.g. root, 3rd, 5th and the root above an octave for major) but you also get the rich tonal color that is expresed by the whole chord.

[Mozart]

And how exactly do composers make it work?

[mahlertitan]

And how exactly do composers make it work?

years of intensive training of course, you have to be taught counterpoint, it's pretty rigorous study, so unless you are really serious about music, i won't recommend it to anyone.

[Mozart]

years of intensive training of course, you have to be taught counterpoint, it's pretty rigorous study, so unless you are really serious about music, i won't recommend it to anyone.

Its hard enough to listen to thanks.   

[hornteacher]

I had lessons in counterpoint while I was working on my music degree (long time ago).  It was a very fascinating study, almost more like math than music, but it was some of the most rigorous work I ever did.

[71 dB]

What exactly do you do when you listen to counterpoint?

I don't know what other people do but I listen to the separate voices and how they interact.

[Larry Rinkel]

Its hard enough to listen to thanks.   

In answering this question you have to consider the relation of rhythm to counterpoint. The ear responds naturally to whichever voice is moving at any time, and a typical technique in Bach is to have one voice sustaining a note while another is moving more rapidly. And so you're able to hear an interplay among all the contrapuntal lines. To see how this works, turn to virtually any prelude or fugue from the WTC; I clicked here and randomly selected the E major prelude from book 1, page 36:

http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/abt8726/index.html

You can see how, in just the first bar, the bass sustains a dotted whole for all four counts while the other voices move in opposition to it. And on the third beat the tenor holds the A while the soprano moves, while on the fourth beat the soprano holds the E as the tenor moves.

There's no question that counterpoint is among the most demanding and difficult aspects of the composer's art. The voices not only have to work well melodically in themselves, but they have to combine into a convincing overall texture that also makes harmonic sense. That's one reason Bach is revered so highly among knowledgeable musicians and listeners; no other composer has had his command of complex counterpoint.

[Bonehelm]

In answering this question you have to consider the relation of rhythm to counterpoint. The ear responds naturally to whichever voice is moving at any time, and a typical technique in Bach is to have one voice sustaining a note while another is moving more rapidly. And so you're able to hear an interplay among all the contrapuntal lines. To see how this works, turn to virtually any prelude or fugue from the WTC; I clicked here and randomly selected the E major prelude from book 1, page 36:

http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/abt8726/index.html

You can see how, in just the first bar, the bass sustains a dotted whole for all four counts while the other voices move in opposition to it. And on the third beat the tenor holds the A while the soprano moves, while on the fourth beat the soprano holds the E as the tenor moves.

There's no question that counterpoint is among the most demanding and difficult aspects of the composer's art. The voices not only have to work well melodically in themselves, but they have to combine into a convincing overall texture that also makes harmonic sense. That's one reason Bach is revered so highly among knowledgeable musicians and listeners; no other composer has had his command of complex counterpoint.

Beethoven, Mahler and Mozart had written counterpoint on par with Bach.

[Larry Rinkel]

Beethoven, Mahler and Mozart had written counterpoint on par with Bach.

There are remarkable passages of counterpoint in all these composers' works. The 5-part fugato in Mozart's Jupiter is only one famous tour de force. And there is fine contrapuntal writing in Mendelssohn, Chopin, Brahms, Bruckner, many others. But following Bach's death, music started moving from a predominantly polyphonic (multi-voiced) to a predominantly homophonic (melody + accompaniment) style. You will not find the same density or predominance of counterpoint in even Mozart or Beethoven that you do in Bach.

[71 dB]

You will not find the same density or predominance of counterpoint in even Mozart or Beethoven that you do in Bach.

That's true. The Vienese classic era gave pretty much up baroque counterpoint in order to simplify the music.

Elgar, Reger and Taneyev were late romantics very much into counterpoint.

[Scriptavolant]

Elgar, Reger and Taneyev were late romantics very much into counterpoint.

I'm unable to see counterpoint as a prerogative of Romantics/Late romantics. I think counterpoint's rebirth has to be placed rather in the XX Century.

[Josquin des Prez]

I'm unable to see counterpoint as a prerogative of Romantics/Late romantics. I think counterpoint's rebirth has to be placed rather in the XX Century.

I concur, but that only goes for a narrow selection of composers. By and large, the last time 'polyphony' was used to it's fullest is with Beethoven. After that it loses it's original aesthetic value, even when counterpoint is used profusely. It's just not the same anymore. Everything sounds micro polyphonic nowadays...

[Anne]

I remember reading in Brahms' biography by Jan Swafford that Brahms thought Dvorak  needed to improve his counterpoint.

[Bonehelm]

I'm unable to see counterpoint as a prerogative of Romantics/Late romantics. I think counterpoint's rebirth has to be placed rather in the XX Century.

Have you heard Mahler? His orchestration makes huge use of counterpoint. Particularly in his 5th symphony.

[Scriptavolant]

Have you heard Mahler? His orchestration makes huge use of counterpoint. Particularly in his 5th symphony.

I didn't mean to say that Romantic composers (and I wouldn't define Mahler a Romantic composer) never apply to counterpoint, I was saying that polyphony wasn't a Romantic aesthetic issue, or a prerogative of that period.

[Bonehelm]

I didn't mean to say that Romantic composers (and I wouldn't define Mahler a Romantic composer) never apply to counterpoint, I was saying that polyphony wasn't a Romantic aesthetic issue, or a prerogative of that period.

Tell me, if Mahler isn't a Romantic composer, what is he? Medieval? New Age?

[Scriptavolant]

No. The collapse of Romanticism.

[Mozart]

No. The collapse of Romanticism.

That would normally cause much joy, but he did it in such a yucky way...

[Valentino]

Mahler yucky?! Young man, go wash your fingers and keyboard!

Interesting thread, this.