Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[prémont]

Whatever he writes in Italian, it seems to me, that the artistic merit of the recordings may be rather small.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Whatever he writes in Italian, it seems to me, that the artistic merit of the recordings may be rather small.

Ah, it all comes back to me now. I had come across that before. Recordings made in slow-motion and then sped up to adequate speed... as a tool to help (if that's the right word) his students.

[San Antone]

I don't have a problem with what he is doing, as long as he makes it plain to everyone (which it seems he has).  And if it is mainly for his students, then I won't make any negative judgment. 

However, the question I ask is why do these recordings appear on streaming services and elsewhere along with legitimate recordings? 

[Baron Scarpia]

I don't have a problem with it, as long as he makes plain how he does it. If a beautiful performance of a Beethoven Sonata can be created using software, why is that illegitimate? (I have not heard the recording in question and have no idea whether it is any good.) Playing a piano sonata is a combination of athletic and an intellectual tasks. If someone has the musicality to make a great performance but not the fingers, what is wrong with using software?

Of course there is the cult of piano virtuosity, and it would be unfair to traditional performers if he passed his work off as a live performance.

[Todd]

If a beautiful performance of a Beethoven Sonata can be created using software, why is that illegitimate?

A piano sonata should be performed by a person playing a real piano.  Digital pianos are fine for John Tesh style music. 

[Brian]

A piano sonata should be performed by a person playing a real piano.  Digital pianos are fine for John Tesh style music.

And Mercy, Mercy, Mercy.

[Mandryka]

However, the question I ask is why do these recordings appear on streaming services and elsewhere along with legitimate recordings?

Yes I can see where you're coming from. Legitimacy questions aside, people surely should have a way of knowing what sort of thing they're listening to. And in the past the booklet would sometimes make this clear - think of the booklet for Annie Fischer's Beethoven, how that explained her recording procedure. But we've seen the demise of the booklet . . .

[Baron Scarpia]

A piano sonata should be performed by a person playing a real piano.  Digital pianos are fine for John Tesh style music.

Not having heard the performances, the question is, 'could they be mistaken for the performance of a live pianist?' If the answer is no, then they are just bad performances. If the answer is yes, then why is it so essential that the performances be produced by a certain type of mechanism (hammers and dampers actuated my mechanical levers controlled by a person's fingers) rather than another (hammers and dampers actuated by solenoids and stepper motors controlled by a person)?

[San Antone]

Not having heard the performances, the question is, 'could they be mistaken for the performance of a live pianist?' If the answer is no, then they are just bad performances. If the answer is yes, then why is it so essential that the performances be produced by a certain type of mechanism (hammers and dampers actuated my mechanical levers controlled by a person's fingers) rather than another (hammers and dampers actuated by solenoids and stepper motors controlled by a person)?

Unless digital technology has dramatically improved there is no way an electronic keyboard would be confused with a Steinway or other recital quality piano.

But I'm not a strict as Todd.  If this guy wants to play Beethoven on a Casio - I don't care.  I could tell right off what it was when I first heard it.  Noël Akchoté, though really chaps my ass.

[Baron Scarpia]

Unless digital technology has dramatically improved there is no way an electronic keyboard would be confused with a Steinway or other recital quality piano.

I assume what he used was conventional piano which has been fitted with computer controlled actuators. This is a standard product Yamaha has been making for some time. It is like an extremely refined version of a player piano. The difference is that an old fashioned player piano only specifies when each key is up and down (by means of holes punched in a paper scroll). There is no dynamics. In the electronic version both the timing and force of depressing each key is specified, as well as fine gradations of damper position. You can play something on the piano and it will record it to a computer file any by replaying the file the performance is reproduced precisely. You can also edit the file (to correct mistakes or refine the performance) and you can play a file that was created from scratch.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/disklavier/index.html

[Todd]

If the answer is yes, then why is it so essential that the performances be produced by a certain type of mechanism (hammers and dampers actuated my mechanical levers controlled by a person's fingers) rather than another (hammers and dampers actuated by solenoids and stepper motors controlled by a person)?

If this is your standard, why not just listen to a computer program control a digital piano?  Indeed, why not go one step further and listen to such a set up in recital?

Anyway, as to Colombo, you can listen right now, for free, at his web site, so no philosophizing is necessary.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

What about Beethoven cycles that have been performed "into" a piano properly (not like Colombo, who just pokes in the notes at the speed he can manage and then switches the dial to "Allegro") and then replayed them on a reproducing piano? Entremont and Silverman are two such cases - legitimate pianists by all means. Or what about the Zenph studio Gould Goldberg Variations? I tend to be skeptical, sound unheard, on philosophical grounds...

[Baron Scarpia]

If this is your standard, why not just listen to a computer program control a digital piano?  Indeed, why not go one step further and listen to such a set up in recital?

Why not? If Pollini, or Argerich, or whoever would record a performance on an actuated piano and I could replay that performance on a computer controlled piano in my living room, that would at least as satisfying as listening to an audio recording. Maybe my player piano isn't as good as a real Steinway, but neither are my headphones.

As to a recital, I don't think it would make any more sense than listening to an audio recording in a recital.

[Mandryka]

What about Beethoven cycles that have been performed "into" a piano properly . . . and then replayed them on a reproducing piano?

What do you mean?

[Baron Scarpia]

What do you mean?

Exactly what I described above. You performed the work on a Yamaha Disklavier, it records the exact time and dynamics of every key you depress (and pedal positions) and then it can reproduce your performance using electronic actuators on the keys.

[Todd]

If Pollini, or Argerich

Well, you see, it comes down to the artist in these instances.  I was referring to a generic program playing a work, stripped of any fame associated with an actual human artist.

[Todd]

What about Beethoven cycles that have been performed "into" a piano properly (not like Colombo, who just pokes in the notes at the speed he can manage and then switches the dial to "Allegro") and then replayed them on a reproducing piano? Entremont and Silverman are two such cases - legitimate pianists by all means. Or what about the Zenph studio Gould Goldberg Variations? I tend to be skeptical, sound unheard, on philosophical grounds...

The Silverman cycle is quite excellent, even if John Atkinson did not deliver audiophile quality sound.  The difference here, as you noted, is that Silverman (and Entremont) is a proper pianist, with many recordings, studio and live, and many live performances.  The same can't really be said about Claudio Colombo, Vladimir Morrone, Alicja Kot, and Giancarlo Andretti.  At least Colombo has a website, I guess.

[Baron Scarpia]

Well, you see, it comes down to the artist in these instance.  I was referring to a generic program playing a work, stripped of any fame associated with an actual human artist.

I wouldn't be interested in a generic playback of a piano score entered into Sibelius, etc. But, hypothetically, I can imagine an artist who can prepare a Disklavier program the same way Pollini or Argerich prepares a performance, shaping dynamics, rubato, other interpretive touches by hand-editing the file. That would be a different kind of artistry which I don't see as invalid in principal.

[Todd]

That would be a different kind of artistry which I don't see as invalid in principal.

This type of approach is great for electronic music, but not so much for Beethoven or Mozart, and so on.  I don't see it as valid.

[Baron Scarpia]

This type of approach is great for electronic music, but not so much for Beethoven or Mozart, and so on.  I don't see it as valid.

We all have our individual choices as to what is valid and what is not valid. Some here characterize Bach on a modern piano as invalid.