Bruckner's Abbey

[Cato]

Dave - who, granted, doesn't like Thielemann - talked on individual releases about the sound being poor but I heard it for myself with the Bruckner 1 disc.

Huh I just Googled it. You're right. There's no proper review of the box set. How strange. This is the first complete Bruckner survey by VPO. That should in itself be a cause of interest even if it sucks.

That is exactly what I thought!

There might be a review of it on Gramophone, but it is unclear whether it really exists: you must "register" first, which usually means you will then be asked to pay for a subscription.   

I found a review of the Third Symphony, but nothing about the sound is mentioned:

https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/May/Bruckner-sy3-19439861382.htm

[DavidW]

Dave - who, granted, doesn't like Thielemann - talked on individual releases about the sound being poor but I heard it for myself with the Bruckner 1 disc.

He is pretty generous on SQ so that is not a good sign if he didn't like the sound.  Really no excuse for a major label anytime in the past twenty years to screw that up imo.

[Cato]

Here is a review of the Remy Ballot set:


https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/01/bruckner-10-symphonies-gramola/?fbclid=IwAR0i_cf7IU-JCZ82qltfeBJCgm9KRdXX459aHYJYxDV8xs1--tr5S6oA6Ho


An excerpt:

... they have all already been reviewed here on MusicWeb by me and my colleagues and those reviews indicate that Ballot's concept of Bruckner is all of a piece: grand, patient – and very slow, in the Celibidache school. Brucknerians will know by now if they respond to his manner, whereas neophytes are advised to sample his style before committing to a purchase. Personally, I do admire and esteem these accounts, even if I would not necessarily make most of them the first introduction to Bruckner's symphonies or recommend this as a core set; however, I certainly want them as an adjunct or supplement to favourite versions as per my shortlist of preferred recordings – although Ballot's account of the 1872 "First concept version" of the Symphony no. 2 does indeed appear there as a prime recommendation....

[Cato]

I just discovered this link today via FaceBook.


A student of Bruckner's, Mathilde Kralik von Meyrswald, an Austrian composer who lived into the 1940's.


She composed mainly Lieder and smaller chamber works, but three operas and a few other orchestral works are included in her oeuvre.


A descendant is trying to find an audience for her works: this symphony was composed over a span of 40 years or so, completed when she was 85.


I have not yet heard it, but hope to find time tomorrow.

[calyptorhynchus]

Here is a review of the Remy Ballot set:


https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/01/bruckner-10-symphonies-gramola/?fbclid=IwAR0i_cf7IU-JCZ82qltfeBJCgm9KRdXX459aHYJYxDV8xs1--tr5S6oA6Ho


An excerpt:

I've just listened to Ballot's recording of the 6th. I think it's too slow. generally I like a slow tempo with Bruckner, but here the music goes so slowly that certain passages, particularly in the first movement, sound as though the ensemble is falling apart (I don't think it is). He doesn't hold the music together. My favourite Bruckner 6 is by Dennis Russell Davies, who, almost alone amongst conductors gives as a very deliberate finale (not the usual quick gallop other conductors present, or the loose amble that Ballot gives us). NB, Celibidache, ironically, isn't deliberate/slow enough in the finale of this work (at least in the recordings of his I have heard).

[foxandpeng]

Cross Post...

It's been a while.

Anton Bruckner
Symphony 00 'Study Symphony'
Georg Tintner
Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Naxos

It has always been my plan to join the 'Bruckner 200' listening fest, because I have appreciated him so much over the years. I've realised just how long it is since I last listened with any commitment to his symphonies, so I'm starting a bit earlier in the year than I intended. Probably lots of Tintner while I find my feet again, after which I can work on figuring out which versions of each work and which performances I prefer.

Feels like a bit of a tall task, but not so different from my really worthwhile traversals of DSCH SQs and Miaskovsky symphonies in the last couple of years.

*Note to self... here are Tintner's choices and versions...

"Study" Symphony in F minor (1863 - Nowak)
Symphony #0 in D minor "Die Nulte" (1869 - Nowak)
Symphony #1 in C minor (1866 - Linz; Carragan)
Symphony #2 in C minor (1872 - Carragan)
Symphony #3 in D minor "Wagner" (1873 - Nowak)
Symphony #4 in E Flat Major "Romantic" (1881 - Haas)
Symphony #5 in B Flat Major (1878 - Nowak/Haas)
Symphony #6 in A Major (1881 - Haas)
Symphony #7 in E Major (1883 - Haas)
Symphony #8 in C minor (1887 - Nowak)
Symphony #9 in D minor (1896 - Nowak)

[DavidW]

@foxandpeng My favorite Tintner is the 3rd.  I'm overall not that hot on his recordings though.  I would recommend Karajan, Jochum (either cycle), or Skrowacezski first.

And don't forget the masses, motets and the string quintet!

[foxandpeng]

@foxandpeng My favorite Tintner is the 3rd.  I'm overall not that hot on his recordings though.  I would recommend Karajan, Jochum (either cycle), or Skrowacezski first.

And don't forget the masses, motets and the string quintet!

Haha. Thank you. Just a small list to start with, then

The Tintner was my entry point to Bruckner many years ago, so I confess a level of familiarity and entirely subjective 'rightness' about his approach, even though it has been a while. Your recs are now on my list, as are Wand, Inbal and Chailly. For now, at least

My preferences have predictably fallen with 4, 7, and 8, followed fairly closely by 6 and 5, with 3 and 2, and then the rest. It will be interesting to see what changes. Outside of the symphonies, I am a bit ignorant tbh, but glad to poke around. Hopefully, this anniversary year will stimulate me to new appreciation. Obliquely, it might also prod me to revisit Mahler, who has always seemed a bit too much like hard work for less immediate attraction. 

It all seems a bit Romantic compared to my usual fare...

[foxandpeng]

Anton Bruckner
Symphony 00 'Study Symphony' WAB99
Christian Thielemann
Wiener Philharmoniker
Sony

Nice. I like Thielemann's pacing in the first movement of this symphony. I know nothing about whether this is inexperienced juvenilia, unconvincing symphonic style, or much else about the composer's craft. I do like Bruckner, though.

I do sometimes wish that I could speak to the technical elements or architecture of the music I listen to. I suspect there is a whole other layer of benefit and enjoyment to be gained from understanding some of these features in the same way that understanding the nuts and bolts of poetry lifts appreciation to another level. That aside, I like music on whatever childish level I am able to enjoy it.

Thielemann uses the same WAB99 Nowak score as Tintner in the 00 - which is why I have chosen to listen almost back to back. I think I have that right, at least - I only know what I read . I like the recording values here, and although I have only heard it once, felt it stood up to the Tintner timings. I appreciated the pacier first movement (more than 3 minutes faster), and felt the minor differences each way in the other three movements were negligible. Overall, it felt like a slicker and more taut performance but the point for me is that the music was enjoyable. Is the Thielemann better? I don't know

All good here and good to return to this music after donkey's years.

Go Anton.

[foxandpeng]

Apologies for much posting. Any thoughts on the Simone Young cycle? She is warmly commended by the folk at music-web, and my first outing with the Bruckner 00 felt pretty positive. I have no illusions as to my level of expertise, so any impressions welcome 🙂

I did notice that her version choices were almost identical to Tintner with the earliest originals, which for me is a positive...

1. Symphony in F minor, "Study Symphony" (1863) WAB 99 [41:59]
rec. 22-23 February 2013
2. Symphony no. 0 in D minor, "Die Nullte" (1869) WAB 100 [49:41]
rec. 20 & 21 March 2012
3. Symphony no. 1 in C minor, "Linzer" (Urfassung 1865/66) WAB 101 [49:08]
rec. January 2010
4. Symphony no. 2 in C minor (Urfassung 1872) WAB 102 [71:22]
rec. 12 & 13 March 2006
5. Symphony no. 3 in D minor (Urfassung 1873) WAB 103 [68:38]
rec. 14-16 October 2006
6. Symphony no. 4 in E flat major, "Romantic" (Urfassung 1874) WAB 104 [70:01]
rec. 1-3 December 2007
7. Symphony no. 5 in B flat major (1873-75) WAB 105 [73:23]
rec. 1-2 March 2015
8. Symphony no. 6 in A major (1881) WAB 106 [54:37]
rec. 14-16 December 2013
9. Symphony no. 7 in E major (1883) WAB 107 [66:32]
rec. 29 & 30 August 2014
10 & 11. Symphony no. 8 in C minor (Urfassung 1887) WAB 108 [30:45 + 51:56 = 82:41]
rec. 14 & 15 December 2008
12. Symphony no. 9 in D minor (1887-94) WAB 109
rec. 25-27 October 2014 [59:01]

[Cato]

Apologies for much posting. Any thoughts on the Simone Young cycle? She is warmly commended by the folk at music-web, and my first outing with the Bruckner 00 felt pretty positive. I have no illusions as to my level of expertise, so any impressions welcome 🙂

I did notice that her version choices were almost identical to Tintner with the earliest originals, which for me is a positive...

1. Symphony in F minor, "Study Symphony" (1863) WAB 99 [41:59]
rec. 22-23 February 2013
2. Symphony no. 0 in D minor, "Die Nullte" (1869) WAB 100 [49:41]
rec. 20 & 21 March 2012
3. Symphony no. 1 in C minor, "Linzer" (Urfassung 1865/66) WAB 101 [49:08]
rec. January 2010
4. Symphony no. 2 in C minor (Urfassung 1872) WAB 102 [71:22]
rec. 12 & 13 March 2006
5. Symphony no. 3 in D minor (Urfassung 1873) WAB 103 [68:38]
rec. 14-16 October 2006
6. Symphony no. 4 in E flat major, "Romantic" (Urfassung 1874) WAB 104 [70:01]
rec. 1-3 December 2007
7. Symphony no. 5 in B flat major (1873-75) WAB 105 [73:23]
rec. 1-2 March 2015
8. Symphony no. 6 in A major (1881) WAB 106 [54:37]
rec. 14-16 December 2013
9. Symphony no. 7 in E major (1883) WAB 107 [66:32]
rec. 29 & 30 August 2014
10 & 11. Symphony no. 8 in C minor (Urfassung 1887) WAB 108 [30:45 + 51:56 = 82:41]
rec. 14 & 15 December 2008
12. Symphony no. 9 in D minor (1887-94) WAB 109
rec. 25-27 October 2014 [59:01]

No, please, all your comments and recommendations are most welcome!



I did not know anything about a cycle by Simone Young, so I will try to find it!



A

Anton Bruckner
Symphony 00 'Study Symphony' WAB99
Christian Thielemann
Wiener Philharmoniker
Sony

Nice. I like Thielemann's pacing in the first movement of this symphony. I know nothing about whether this is inexperienced juvenilia, unconvincing symphonic style, or much else about the composer's craft. I do like Bruckner, though.

I do sometimes wish that I could speak to the technical elements or architecture of the music I listen to. I suspect there is a whole other layer of benefit and enjoyment to be gained from understanding some of these features in the same way that understanding the nuts and bolts of poetry lifts appreciation to another level. That aside, I like music on whatever childish level I am able to enjoy it.

Thielemann uses the same WAB99 Nowak score as Tintner in the 00 - which is why I have chosen to listen almost back to back. I think I have that right, at least - I only know what I read . I like the recording values here, and although I have only heard it once, felt it stood up to the Tintner timings. I appreciated the pacier first movement (more than 3 minutes faster), and felt the minor differences each way in the other three movements were negligible. Overall, it felt like a slicker and more taut performance but the point for me is that the music was enjoyable. Is the Thielemann better? I don't know

All good here and good to return to this music after donkey's years.

Go Anton.

The "Study Symphony" is not juvenilia per se, as Bruckner was already 40 years old when he composed it.


I have always thought that since he never destroyed the manuscript, he must have had some fondness for it and thought it worthwhile, and was not just sentimental about it being his first attempt at a symphony.

[Cato]

Concerning Simone Young:

[brewski]

No, please, all your comments and recommendations are most welcome!

Ditto!

I did not know anything about a cycle by Simone Young, so I will try to find it!

New to me as well. I see that in addition to the No. 1 you posted, there are others on YouTube, and I'll look forward to checking those out.

-Bruce

[foxandpeng]

Appreciated, both! Looks like a fruitful and busy year ahead 😁

[Cato]

There is a survey on another Bruckner website about a choice between...


Bruckner's Eighth Symphony: Haitink versus Celibidache - Nowak Version 1890


Celibidache's version lasts 105 minutes and Haitink's 73 minutes



Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Bernard Haitink - 73 min 55 sec

Munich Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sergiu Celibidache


Live recording: 12 & 13 September 1993, Philharmonie am Gasteig, München 105 min

Which one would you choose? 

[brewski]

Which one would you choose? 

Wow. A difference of over 30 minutes with Celibidache. I haven't heard that one (and certainly will, just for the time difference), but the Haitink was one of the first Bruckner recordings I heard—and played endlessly. So he and the Amsterdammers get the nod at the moment, but wow. Half an hour. 

-Bruce

[Cato]

Wow. A difference of over 30 minutes with Celibidache.

...but wow. Half an hour. 

-Bruce

"Wow, half an hour" was my reaction also!

[DavidW]

We live in a world where we can have both!

[LKB]

There is a survey on another Bruckner website about a choice between...


Bruckner's Eighth Symphony: Haitink versus Celibidache - Nowak Version 1890


Celibidache's version lasts 105 minutes and Haitink's 73 minutes



Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Bernard Haitink - 73 min 55 sec

Munich Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sergiu Celibidache


Live recording: 12 & 13 September 1993, Philharmonie am Gasteig, München 105 min

Which one would you choose? 

Haitink, every time... 

He has at least two other worthy offerings of the Eighth, his digital studio RCO recording from 1981 ( which a certain high-profile critic wrongly maintains is poorly recorded ), uploaded to YouTube piecemeal...

https://youtu.be/Mjy3jX8lbQU?si=_RJfiyK4mwqXYTZi  Movt. 1

and this live concert, also with the RCO:

https://youtu.be/sjSRv3MDQHU?si=Kb0ZZ0F9idzm9LS7

For both versions, I had to boost the volume somewhat.

[Cato]

We live in a world where we can have both!

Despite many problems today (and show me an era without problems!), with Bruckner and all kinds of other composers being at our fingertips we can counterbalance them at least somewhat!