USA Politics (redux)

[milk]

On matters like this I don't pay attention to national news from any source, which has the luxury of cherry picking items to suit their narrative. I look at local news from places where I lived or have recently lived and where I understand the context. I live in the Houston area. I read in the Houston Chronicle that there was a protest drawing (as I recall) 50,000 people in Central Houston. There were no reports of significant violence or property damage. In the leafy suburb where I live a high school student organized a BLM march on social media. They marched from the main business district to a nearby park, causing minor traffic disruption. In the small California town where I used to live there was a week of protests. Protesters, at one point, walked out onto the major road through the town (US101) and blocked traffic. They were driven away by the police using tear gas and rubber bullets. I read in the local paper that three shop windows were broken in the downtown area near where the protests occurred. The 18 year old woman who was one of the main organizers of the protest has been charged with ~20 fellonies, and prosecutors want to send her to prison for more than 20 years. At the height of the protest a motorist tried to run her down with his car and she struck the car with a flag pole she was carrying. In D.C., several friends reported participating in BLM protests in the capitol. One is a lawyer, the other a technology consultant working for Reuters. They reported an uplifting experience. One referenced a post by the pastor of the church where Trump displayed the upside-down bible. They were helping protesters with water and food and were attacked and driven out of their own church by a tear gas attack by Federal agents, so that Trump could occupy their church and use it for a photo.

I am a 100% supporter of BLM, which is a decentralized organization which condemns violence in all forms. I don't think the are responsible for violence that occurs at the periphery of protests they organize, or which are conducted in their name without their involvement. Their focus is not exclusively on police violence, but on the fact that U.S. society does not value black people, which does not allow them the same access to educational, economic or social resources.

you're saying the local news supports your view and if it didn't, you'd change your mind? Ok.

[Todd]

On matters like this I don't pay attention to national news from any source, which has the luxury of cherry picking items to suit their narrative. I look at local news from places where I lived or have recently lived and where I understand the context.

This will almost certainly be deleted, but that is OK.  I also rely on local first-hand accounts when available.  One of my relatives was a Multnomah County Sheriff's deputy during the Portland riots.  He was called on to protect public buildings in Portland.  That included the jail, which rioters - left wing rioters - attempted to burn down.  He was there.  He heard what they were yelling, he saw the signs they carried.  He had to avoid projectiles.  Some on fire.  There were inmates inside the jail as well as officers, it should be noted.  Lives were on the line.  For real.  It was not a game.  It was not an online forum.  People faced the real risk of dying.  But people will believe what they want, as filtered through the internet.

My relative retired from the Sheriff's Office very soon afterward, as did a large number of deputies and Portland police officers.  The two agencies cannot fill the open slots.  The City of Portland just announced - as in this week - a new bonus program in a desperate attempt to fill over one hundred open positions.  Signing bonuses for experienced officers can be as high as $25K.  Local KOIN station had a lengthy series of stories called "Is Portland Over?" because some things are so bad.  The homeless crisis is so bad that the city looks like a developing country in some locations, and in others it looks like lawless favelas have been set up right outside nice neighborhoods (eg, Powell Butte).  Portland has been run by the American Left since the 1950s - that is a fact, which can be looked up online - and the last few years have been disastrous.  There are people who refuse to work downtown.  I have personally spoken with people when interviewing for jobs who wanted to no longer work in Portland because they feared for their safety.  There were no news stories, no online op-eds, none of that, just real people discussing reality on the ground right now.  Precisely contrary to what has been written on this very forum by people who do not know the area, it is left wing protestors who have been primarily responsible for the destruction and decline of Portland.  To be sure, right-wing fools (eg, Proud Boys) have been involved, but the overwhelming amount of violence and destruction has been perpetrated by left-wing perpetrators seeking what they call "justice".  But of course, what I write is wrong and will sway no one and people will continue to believe what they want to believe.  That is the beauty of contemporary politics.  Find your preferred online echo chamber and get comfy.

[greg]

On what basis do you claim these people were leftist?

Because they were BLM protests. BLM is leftist.

Do you remember umbrella man breaking the windows of businesses in Portland? He wasn't BLM or antifa, he turned out to be on "the other" side.

I see this person used as an example- yeah, this sort of thing can happen. But keeping the big picture in mind, it doesn't really change anything.

As for the bold portion: There is extensive and pervasive violence against blacks. It doesn't always end with murder.   

Against everyone. And sometimes aggressive treatment is needed, sometimes it really isn't and ends in disaster. People here in the US can be quite crazy, and cops know this.

but on the fact that U.S. society does not value black people, which does not allow them the same access to educational, economic or social resources.

Yeah, this isn't a fact. This is the 2020's, not the 1950's.

[SimonNZ]

  But of course, what I write is wrong and will sway no one and people will continue to believe what they want to believe.  That is the beauty of contemporary politics.  Find your preferred online echo chamber and get comfy.

I don't know about the history of Portland, but wrt the BLM riots I return to this and ask if you would contradict it:

And as I've said before on this thread, I blame Trump further for not speaking in empathy with the black community or calling for police reform or doing anything at all to defuse the situation at any point along the way, but rather did everything he could to stoke bad feeling and outrage and division to the point of explosion, because it plays better with the maga base to support bad cops and paint blacks as thugs.

[greg]

This will almost certainly be deleted, but that is OK.  I also rely on local first-hand accounts when available.  One of my relatives was a Multnomah County Sheriff's deputy during the Portland riots.  He was called on to protect public buildings in Portland.  That included the jail, which rioters - left wing rioters - attempted to burn down.  He was there.  He heard what they were yelling, he saw the signs they carried.  He had to avoid projectiles.  Some on fire.  There were inmates inside the jail as well as officers, it should be noted.  Lives were on the line.  For real.  It was not a game.  It was not an online forum.  People faced the real risk of dying.  But people will believe what they want, as filtered through the internet.

The main one I remember was, weren't they trying to burn down the Portland courthouse for like a month? Or am I misremembering?
(didn't know about the jail btw)

[Todd]

The main one I remember was, weren't they trying to burn down the Portland courthouse for like a month? Or am I misremembering?
(didn't know about the jail btw)

That was the federal courthouse in Downtown Portland, which gave rise to the stupid decision by the Trump Administration to use unidentified federal agents to apprehend suspected perpetrators.

[Gurn Blanston]

This will almost certainly be deleted, but that is OK.  I also rely on local first-hand accounts when available.  One of my relatives was a Multnomah County Sheriff's deputy during the Portland riots.  He was called on to protect public buildings in Portland.  That included the jail, which rioters - left wing rioters - attempted to burn down.  He was there.  He heard what they were yelling, he saw the signs they carried.  He had to avoid projectiles.  Some on fire.  There were inmates inside the jail as well as officers, it should be noted.  Lives were on the line.  For real.  It was not a game.  It was not an online forum.  People faced the real risk of dying.  But people will believe what they want, as filtered through the internet.

My relative retired from the Sheriff's Office very soon afterward, as did a large number of deputies and Portland police officers.  The two agencies cannot fill the open slots.  The City of Portland just announced - as in this week - a new bonus program in a desperate attempt to fill over one hundred open positions.  Signing bonuses for experienced officers can be as high as $25K.  Local KOIN station had a lengthy series of stories called "Is Portland Over?" because some things are so bad.  The homeless crisis is so bad that the city looks like a developing country in some locations, and in others it looks like lawless favelas have been set up right outside nice neighborhoods (eg, Powell Butte).  Portland has been run by the American Left since the 1950s - that is a fact, which can be looked up online - and the last few years have been disastrous.  There are people who refuse to work downtown.  I have personally spoken with people when interviewing for jobs who wanted to no longer work in Portland because they feared for their safety.  There were no news stories, no online op-eds, none of that, just real people discussing reality on the ground right now.  Precisely contrary to what has been written on this very forum by people who do not know the area, it is left wing protestors who have been primarily responsible for the destruction and decline of Portland.  To be sure, right-wing fools (eg, Proud Boys) have been involved, but the overwhelming amount of violence and destruction has been perpetrated by left-wing perpetrators seeking what they call "justice".  But of course, what I write is wrong and will sway no one and people will continue to believe what they want to believe.  That is the beauty of contemporary politics.  Find your preferred online echo chamber and get comfy.

Portland's issues are unique to itself and in no way represent the nation as a whole. Nationwide, there were pockets of heavy violence, but the vast majority of demonstrations were distinctly nonviolent.

It is clearly obvious from what you have written here that Portland's issues far predate BLM, or most of the Left of today, for that matter. Overall, well... 

[Madiel]

Because they were BLM protests. BLM is leftist.

You seem unaware of how, if this claim is true, it utterly damns the right.

[Herman]

You seem unaware of how, if this claim is true, it utterly damns the right.

Yes.

[milk]

This will almost certainly be deleted, but that is OK.  I also rely on local first-hand accounts when available.  One of my relatives was a Multnomah County Sheriff's deputy during the Portland riots.  He was called on to protect public buildings in Portland.  That included the jail, which rioters - left wing rioters - attempted to burn down.  He was there.  He heard what they were yelling, he saw the signs they carried.  He had to avoid projectiles.  Some on fire.  There were inmates inside the jail as well as officers, it should be noted.  Lives were on the line.  For real.  It was not a game.  It was not an online forum.  People faced the real risk of dying.  But people will believe what they want, as filtered through the internet.

My relative retired from the Sheriff's Office very soon afterward, as did a large number of deputies and Portland police officers.  The two agencies cannot fill the open slots.  The City of Portland just announced - as in this week - a new bonus program in a desperate attempt to fill over one hundred open positions.  Signing bonuses for experienced officers can be as high as $25K.  Local KOIN station had a lengthy series of stories called "Is Portland Over?" because some things are so bad.  The homeless crisis is so bad that the city looks like a developing country in some locations, and in others it looks like lawless favelas have been set up right outside nice neighborhoods (eg, Powell Butte).  Portland has been run by the American Left since the 1950s - that is a fact, which can be looked up online - and the last few years have been disastrous.  There are people who refuse to work downtown.  I have personally spoken with people when interviewing for jobs who wanted to no longer work in Portland because they feared for their safety.  There were no news stories, no online op-eds, none of that, just real people discussing reality on the ground right now.  Precisely contrary to what has been written on this very forum by people who do not know the area, it is left wing protestors who have been primarily responsible for the destruction and decline of Portland.  To be sure, right-wing fools (eg, Proud Boys) have been involved, but the overwhelming amount of violence and destruction has been perpetrated by left-wing perpetrators seeking what they call "justice".  But of course, what I write is wrong and will sway no one and people will continue to believe what they want to believe.  That is the beauty of contemporary politics.  Find your preferred online echo chamber and get comfy.

I should have mentioned that I lived in Portland for several years before moving out of the country. I still know people there (these are the people who most defend rioting and extreme positions like "defund the police"). Anybody who has spent any time in Portland knows that it's a left-wing city. I attended PSU.

[milk]

This.

And as I've said before on this thread, I blame Trump further for not speaking in empathy with the black community or calling for police reform or doing anything at all to defuse the situation at any point along the way, but rather did everything he could to stoke bad feeling and outrage and division to the point of explosion, because it plays better with the maga base to support bad cops and paint blacks as thugs.

This seems weak to me. Are we children? Yes, trumb is an idiot. 24/7. But because of bad feelings people went haywire ? I rather think the left blew its opportunities and lost its focus on real issues. Genocide of black people, to quote Naomi Osaka, is absurd. What's not absurd is real racism in policing, in some locations, a complicated issue to be sure (not to be solved with defunding or abolishing), warehousing of a whole generation of African Americans (also a complex issue), and overall poverty, education, healthcare, union representation, affecting lots of middle class and poor people of all backgrounds. The left is caught up in absurdities. It can't live on "trump is bad."

[71 dB]

Because they were BLM protests. BLM is leftist.

Yeah, because a lot of people on the right have morally questionable ideas such as all people shouldn't be equal.

In the US white people in general have been in power, especially white men. Equal opportunities and rights for everyone, what the left advocates, mean these people will lose some of that power when it gets spread over the whole population. All of this is about class war between the 99 % and the 1 %, but since the 1 % has actually lost this war ideologically long ago, they need to change the game: They need the 99 % divided so that it leaves the 1 % alone free to keep robbing them blind. MAGA, Proud Boys, Antifa, BLM,... all of this is about divided 99 %.

[milk]

Yeah, because a lot of people on the right have morally questionable ideas such as all people shouldn't be equal.

In the US white people in general have been in power, especially white men. Equal opportunities and rights for everyone, what the left advocates, mean these people will lose some of that power when it gets spread over the whole population. All of this is about class war between the 99 % and the 1 %, but since the 1 % has actually lost this war ideologically long ago, they need to change the game: They need the 99 % divided so that it leaves the 1 % alone free to keep robbing them blind. MAGA, Proud Boys, Antifa, BLM,... all of this is about divided 99 %.

The second part of this makes some sense. The first part is questionable depending on what kinds of solutions are being proposed to what kinds of specific problems. The stuff that's been fed to the younger generation that's come out of the academy: equity and rigging outcomes, post modern gender nonsense, ideologies of oppression and outrage, identitarianism - this IS going to sink the left. It is going to keep people in grievance mode and divided. This is what's gotten trumpf elected and it's what will re-elect him or elect DeSantis. DeSantis is coming up. Who's gonna stop him?

[Madiel]

The second part of this makes some sense. The first part is questionable depending on what kinds of solutions are being proposed to what kinds of specific problems. The stuff that's been fed to the younger generation that's come out of the academy: equity and rigging outcomes, post modern gender nonsense, ideologies of oppression and outrage, identitarianism - this IS going to sink the left. It is going to keep people in grievance mode and divided. This is what's gotten trumpf elected and it's what will re-elect him or elect DeSantis. DeSantis is coming up. Who's gonna stop him?

Rigging outcomes?

There's a profound reluctance in some quarters to understand that the benefits of many many previous generations of rigging outcomes still persist. Formal equality from a particular point in time doesn't produce satisfactory outcomes if nothing is done to address what happened before.

African-Americans are still dealing with the consequences of policies like redlining. Black entrepeneurs are still dealing with the fact that they can't tap into the wealth resources of family the way that a lot of white entrepeneurs can, because their families didn't get to accumulate wealth resources. Sure, this rich white family doesn't own slaves now, but the wealth they obtained through owning slaves set them up nicely, and they got to keep it.

The reluctance extends to even banning talking about these things.

[71 dB]

The second part of this makes some sense. The first part is questionable depending on what kinds of solutions are being proposed to what kinds of specific problems. The stuff that's been fed to the younger generation that's come out of the academy: equity and rigging outcomes, post modern gender nonsense, ideologies of oppression and outrage, identitarianism - this IS going to sink the left. It is going to keep people in grievance mode and divided. This is what's gotten trumpf elected and it's what will re-elect him or elect DeSantis. DeSantis is coming up. Who's gonna stop him?

If anyone is guilty of rigging the outcomes it is the rich white men and in the US this may indeed sink the left and the country becomes a theoratic dictatorship (Ron DeSantis, who is just as bad as Trump, but smarter, might be the first dictator - Joe Rogan seems to works hard for this result). Good luck for Americans the little freedoms they had, but I am very pessimistic after all these years. Roe v. Wade gone. EPA gone. Next gay marriage and sodomy laws... I doesn't look good for the 99 %. 

[Madiel]

The EPA is not gone.

I've already seen some fundamental misunderstanding of the EPA case. It is not a case about the interpretation of the constitution. It's about the regulation-making powers the EPA has under laws passed by Congress. If Congress passes different laws it can give the EPA different powers.

[71 dB]

The EPA is not gone.

I've already seen some fundamental misunderstanding of the EPA case. It is not a case about the interpretation of the constitution. It's about the regulation-making powers the EPA has under laws passed by Congress. If Congress passes different laws it can give the EPA different powers.

EPA is gone in the sense that it is handcuffed. It can't do what it is supposed to do. As for the Congress passing laws to give EPA more power, good luck with that!   

[Madiel]

EPA is gone in the sense that it is handcuffed. It can't do what it is supposed to do. As for the Congress passing laws to give EPA more power, good luck with that!   

Who decides what the EPA is "supposed to do"?

Answer: it's Congress. And that's the point. It's basic separation of powers stuff. Governments don't write laws, legislatures do. Government agencies only get regulation-making powers to the extent that legislatures provide them.

If Congress isn't giving the EPA the right kind of powers, the solution is to elect a different Congress. And yes, the rigging of the American electoral system is a whole other issue. But getting away from basic constitutional theory about who actually gets to make laws versus who is supposed to administer them is not a good solution to that.

I mean, I've no idea whether I agree with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Clean Air Act or not. But if the current Clean Air Act is inadequate, it's the job of Congress to change it, not the job of the EPA.

[DavidW]

You seem unaware of how, if this claim is true, it utterly damns the right.

Greg unironically asserted that the right is racist.  He is not exactly a good spokesman for his own political views!

[Fëanor]

Who decides what the EPA is "supposed to do"?

Answer: it's Congress. And that's the point. It's basic separation of powers stuff. Governments don't write laws, legislatures do. Government agencies only get regulation-making powers to the extent that legislatures provide them.

If Congress isn't giving the EPA the right kind of powers, the solution is to elect a different Congress. And yes, the rigging of the American electoral system is a whole other issue. But getting away from basic constitutional theory about who actually gets to make laws versus who is supposed to administer them is not a good solution to that.

I mean, I've no idea whether I agree with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Clean Air Act or not. But if the current Clean Air Act is inadequate, it's the job of Congress to change it, not the job of the EPA.

I wonder how detail laws have to be in the USA?  In Canada most laws passed by Parliament are purposely vague in detail, and implicitly or explicitly allow Cabinet to provide details and regulations that flesh out the law;  these formal Cabinet decisions are referred to as "Orders-in-Council".

Thus, for example, in 2020 Cabinet, by an Order-in-Council, declared over 1500 assault-style rifle models retroactively banned.  This ban is consistent with existing legislation but not detailed in it.

I wonder if there is a parallel in US practice?  It seems to me that Presidential "Executive Orders" are roughly the same idea as Orders-in-Council".  On that basis I wonder if, or to what extent, the powers of the EPA might be reinforced by Executive Orders consistent with the Clean Air Act?