Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

We shall make a meeting happen another time!

[TheGSMoeller]

Well, Greg. You probably need the fortepiano reduction now. I mean to close the circle. 

Hi, Antoine
Yes, I definitely need the fortepiano version now, any suggestions?

BTW, I think the feeling of Equilbey's version as more "balanced" than Harnoncourt's version is probably an effect of the colla parte technique used by Equilbey. A complete explanation is included in the liner notes. 

Just read the liner notes about colla parte, very interesting. Thanks a bunch, friend. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Seeking opinions on these too:
[asin]B001EQPD3I[/asin]........

Hi, Antoine
Yes, I definitely need the fortepiano version now, any suggestions?


Just read the liner notes about colla parte, very interesting. Thanks a bunch, friend. 

This box that chas and I were discussing the other night would probably be ideal, Greg. It not only has an excellent "7 Last Words" (which was not arranged by Haydn, but was approved by him before publication), but some very nice renditions of all the variations and such, of which I am personally quite fond. I haven't  checked the price lately, but it was a real bargain for the last couple of years.


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Now playing:
Derek Adlam - Clavichord - Hob 17_06 Variations in F for Keyboard "Un Piccolo Divertimento"

[Gurn Blanston]

Klemperer's Haydn and Mozart symphonies exhibit none of the stereotypical "Old Klemperer" idiosyncracies. His little G minor, for example, is blistering! Makes the HIPsters sound leaden in comparison.

Recording years:

88 - 1964
92 - 1971
95 - 1970
98 - 1960
100 - 1965
101 - 1960
102 - 1965
104 - 1964

Sarge

Thanks for the info, Sarge. I freely admit I know less than nothing about that era of recording. I know a few of our compadres here in the Das Haus prefer earlier interpretive styles, and will benefit from this.

[Gurn Blanston]

There may not be any Haydn in my life for four days.

A not insurmountable problem, Karl, but we will accept that you will be otherwise occupied and let you slide... for now.   Have a great time with your presentation, hope you come back with a laurel wreath crown!

[Antoine Marchand]

Hi, Antoine
Just read the liner notes about colla parte, very interesting. Thanks a bunch, friend. 

You're welcome, Greg!

Yes, I definitely need the fortepiano version now, any suggestions?

BTW, some time ago, I posted a chronology of the different versions of the Last Seven Words. I think it's still useful:

a) the original version for orchestra, frequently dated 1785, in other sources 1787;

b) the version for string quartet , completed before 21 June 1787, and made under Haydn's supervision.

c) the version for "Clavicembalo o Fortepiano", also referred as a "Piano Score" (in his letter of  21-6-1787) "selbst übersehen und corrigirt", i.e., also created under his supervision.

d) a version (perhaps even two) as a oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, made by Joseph Friebert, music director of the Cathedral of Passau, 1792 (?).

e) an oratorio version made by Haydn himself, probably dating from 1795/1796.

Regarding the fortepiano version, I have the following recordings:

I. BART VAN OORT, fortepiano
Haydn – Klavierstücke (complete)
Fantasias
Variations Dances
The Seven Last Words
5 CDs

CD 5
The Seven Last Words
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze Hob XX/2 (1787)
Fortepiano after Walter (ca. 1795) by Chris Maene (Ruiselede, 2000)
Recorded 10 May 2007, Hervormde Kerk, Rhoon, The Netherlands. DDD
Total timing 56:54
Brilliant Classics

II. RONALD BRAUTIGAM, fortepiano
Joseph Haydn – The Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
15 CDs

CD 15
(available as a single disc)

Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlosers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of the Saviour on the Cross
(Authorized keyboard arrangement of the orchestral work with the same title, Hob. XX:1, performed from a facsimile of the original edition)
Fortepiano by Paul McNulty, Amsterdam 1992, after A.G. Walter, ca. 1795
Recorded at the Lanna Church, Sweden, August 2002. DDD
Total timing 66:22
Bis

III. JAROSLAV TŮMA, fortepiano
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of Christ (keyboard version)

Fortepiano, copy of Walter and sons, 1806 (Vienna)
Recording in Prague, August 30-31, 2003. SACD (Hybrid)
Total timing: 71:27
Praga Digitals

IV. JOS VAN IMMERSEEL, fortepiano
Sette sonate con un introduzione ed al fine un teremoto sopra le sette ultime parole del Nostro Redentore in Croce
Fortepiano Chrstopher Clarke, 1988. Cluny after Anton Walter, Vienna
Recording dates: 17/18 May 1994. DDD
Total timing 56:40
Channel Classics

All of them are excellent, but Brautigam is just superb. If just one, I would recommend Brautigam hands down, although any of the other versions will also be totally enjoyable.

I have the excellent complete set of John McCabe too, but his Last Seven Words are not the best achievement of his series.

I would also like to know a version on clavichord recorded by Aapo Häkkinen (Alba), but it's moderately hard to find. 

[Gurn Blanston]

You're welcome, Greg!

BTW, some time ago, I posted a chronology of the different versions of the Last Seven Words. I think it's still useful:

Regarding the fortepiano version, I have the following recordings:

I. BART VAN OORT, fortepiano
Haydn – Klavierstücke (complete)
Fantasias
Variations Dances
The Seven Last Words
5 CDs

CD 5
The Seven Last Words
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze Hob XX/2 (1787)
Fortepiano after Walter (ca. 1795) by Chris Maene (Ruiselede, 2000)
Recorded 10 May 2007, Hervormde Kerk, Rhoon, The Netherlands. DDD
Total timing 56:54
Brilliant Classics

II. RONALD BRAUTIGAM, fortepiano
Joseph Haydn – The Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
15 CDs

CD 15
(available as a single disc)

Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlosers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of the Saviour on the Cross
(Authorized keyboard arrangement of the orchestral work with the same title, Hob. XX:1, performed from a facsimile of the original edition)
Fortepiano by Paul McNulty, Amsterdam 1992, after A.G. Walter, ca. 1795
Recorded at the Lanna Church, Sweden, August 2002. DDD
Total timing 66:22
Bis

III. JAROSLAV TŮMA, fortepiano
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of Christ (keyboard version)

Fortepiano, copy of Walter and sons, 1806 (Vienna)
Recording in Prague, August 30-31, 2003. SACD (Hybrid)
Total timing: 71:27
Praga Digitals

IV. JOS VAN IMMERSEEL, fortepiano
Sette sonate con un introduzione ed al fine un teremoto sopra le sette ultime parole del Nostro Redentore in Croce
Fortepiano Chrstopher Clarke, 1988. Cluny after Anton Walter, Vienna
Recording dates: 17/18 May 1994. DDD
Total timing 56:40
Channel Classics

All of them are excellent, but Brautigam is just superb. If just one, I would recommend Brautigam hands down, although any of the other versions will also be totally enjoyable.

I have the excellent complete set of John McCabe too, but his Last Seven Words are not the best achievement of his series.

I would also like to know a version on clavichord recorded by Aapo Häkkinen (Alba), but it's moderately hard to find. 

Antoine,
The Immerseel and the Hakkinen are new to me. Is worth the time to find the Immerseel for myself? I already decided to look for the Hakkinen, since I have a lot of clavichord Haydn and would love to add that work.

[Gurn Blanston]

Anyone who is interested in the Hakkila '7 Last Words' on clavichord (Alba), I was able to get it here in the USA at ArkivMusik. It makes up for not being inexpensive by being available.  No one else seemed to even list it!




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Now playing:

The English Concert; Pinnock - Hob 01_045 Symphony in f# 2nd mvmt - Adagio

[Bogey]

Is that one of their cdr's, Gurn?

[Gurn Blanston]

Is that one of their cdr's, Gurn?

Nope, brand new factory disk from Alba.   Are you a clavichord fan, Bill?

[Antoine Marchand]

Antoine,
The Immerseel and the Hakkinen are new to me. Is worth the time to find the Immerseel for myself? I already decided to look for the Hakkinen, since I have a lot of clavichord Haydn and would love to add that work.

Gurn,
I think Immerseel is not a critical acquisition, if you have Brautigam, van Oort and Tuma. Technically it's very well played, of course, but I miss some emotional connection of Immerseel with this work.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn,
I think Immerseel is not a critical acquisition, if you have Brautigam, van Oort and Tuma. Technically it's very well played, of course, but I miss some emotional connection of Immerseel with this work.

OK, thanks for that info, Antoine. So many disks out there, can't have them all (dammit!). 

[Gurn Blanston]

Part 12

1763

One of my earliest 'favorite years'. Some very nice music composed in 1763, and moving on into some previously untapped genres too. Prince Nicolaus' son got married, and his new wife, yet another of the famous Countesses Erdödy, turned out to be one of Haydn's big fans. Haydn's opera of the previous year, Acide, got its premiere to great acclaim. Life was certainly on the upswing.

Here is the music of 1763;

Hob 01_012 Symphony in E
   Apollo Ensemble / Hsu


Hob 01_013 Symphony in D
Hob 01_016 Symphony in Bb
Hob 01_072 Symphony in D
   The Hanover Band / Goodman


Hob 01_034 Symphony in d
Hob 01_040 Symphony in F
   Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood


Hob 02_01 Divertimento a cinque in G for Flute, Oboe & Strings
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
   Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck


Hob 05_16 Divertimento á tre in C for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_17 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_20 Divertimento á tre in G for 2 Violins & Bass
   Camerata Berolinensis
Hob 05_18 Divertimento á tre in Bb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_19 Divertimento á tre in E for 2 Violins & Bass
   Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio


Hob 07a_01 Concerto in C for Violin
Hob 07a_03 Concerto in A for Violin
   The English Concert / Pinnock  Standage


Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello   La Petite Bande / Kuijken  Suzuki
Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello   Tafelmusik / Lamon Bylsma


Hob 23a_G 09 Motet "O coelitum beati"
   Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil


Hob 23c_1 Te Deum in C
   Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox


Hob 24a_02 Cantata in G  "Destatevi, o miei fidi"
   Cappella Coloniensis / A. Spering / VokalEnsemble Köln


The lad was busy that year! IMO, the masterpiece of the year was the Cello Concerto #1. Written for his first chair cello and close friend Joseph Weigl, it was one of the very early Classical concertos that is still very much in the repertoire today. As you see, I have a couple of versions of it posted, since I simply can't choose between them. Yet another is that of Queyras with the Freibourg Baroque. A great enough work to merit several versions.

Also we find 2 violin concertos. The C major, numbered 1 here but actually the second, was also composed for an orchestra member, Luigi Tommasini. Haydn, Weigl and Tommasini all started with the Esterhazy Orchestra at the same time, and worked together for nearly 10 years. Coupled with the horn section, they made this as fine an orchestra as existed at the time, along with Mannheim, which had fr more personnel on call. Certainly the finest private orchestra, bar none.

Of the remainder, I am hoping we will discuss many of them. But I call your attention to Symphony in E major, Hob I:12. Certainly worth your consideration.

[Bogey]

Part 12

I am going to have to catch the first eleven parts on dvd....where is part 1, Gurn? 

[Gurn Blanston]

I am going to have to catch the first eleven parts on dvd....where is part 1, Gurn?

It's only 39 pages back, Bill (been nearly a month now! ), don't know why you couldn't just jump right to it!

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267

Enjoy, there has been a lot of helpful comment along the way.



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Now playing:

  Lola Odiaga (Fortepiano) - Hob 16_49 Sonata #59 in Eb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di minuet

[Antoine Marchand]

Part 12

1763

Hob 07a_01 Concerto in C for Violin
Hob 07a_03 Concerto in A for Violin
   The English Concert / Pinnock  Standage

I love the Violin Concerto in C major, but unfortunately I don't have that Pinocchio. My favorite version is performed by Wallfisch/OAE (Virgin). An excellent version of the "Melker" is delivered by Agustin Hadelich on Naxos (under Müller-Brühl/CChO) Anyway, we are quite lucky because today we have several versions of these works which was not the case some years ago.

BTW, Gurn, do you prefer 1763 for some particular reason? I mean frequently these concertos are dated around 1765; even I think the Concerto in C major was entered to the Haydn's catalogue that year (the famous annotation "fatto per il Luigi").     

[Gurn Blanston]

I love the Violin Concerto in C major, but unfortunately I don't have that Pinocchio. My favorite version is performed by Wallfisch/OAE (Virgin). An excellent version of the "Melker" is delivered by Agustin Hadelich on Naxos (under Müller-Brühl/CChO) Anyway, we are quite lucky because today we have several versions of these works which was not the case some years ago.

BTW, Gurn, do you prefer 1763 for some particular reason? I mean frequently these concertos are dated around 1765; even I think the Concerto in C major was entered to the Haydn's catalogue that year (the famous annotation "fatto per il Luigi").     

Well, you will soon have Standage playing it, although with a different orchestra, the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss. It is on that Early Divertimentos set you ordered today.   15 years newer, but always fresh. In addition to those 2, I also have the Freiburg Baroque with Van der Goltz directing and playing solo violin. And Rachel Podger with the OAE / Beznosiuk. Another nice version! So you're right, lots of good versions out there, as there should be. I also have the Walffisch, now that I think about it! An embarrassment of riches!

Well, early on in this project, when I found out what I wide divergence there was in possible dating, I decided that right or wrong, I would use David Wyn Jones'  "Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn" for any date that was offered in a range. This latest revision (the first edition was co-authored with Robbins-Landon) is supposed to be the latest and greatest. He lists the Violin Concerto #1 as "circa 1763 - (traditional date) 1769". So since I am nearly always more inclined to believe an earlier date than a later one, and since he started in 1762 with the horn concerto and 1763 with the cello concerto to give his virtuosos a vehicle, then I think he probably did the same for Tommasini. Anyway, there is my thought process, right or wrong.

[Bogey]

It's only 39 pages back, Bill (been nearly a month now! ), don't know why you couldn't just jump right to it!

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267

Enjoy, there has been a lot of helpful comment along the way.



----------------
Now playing:

  Lola Odiaga (Fortepiano) - Hob 16_49 Sonata #59 in Eb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di minuet

I have been holding out for the 3-D release.  Thanks!

[Gurn Blanston]

I have been holding out for the 3-D release.  Thanks!

Don't sell me short, my friend; this is the 3D release! Blu-Ray too, all the latest and greatest as befits the top of the line.




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Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 07a_01 Concerto in C for Violin 'Fatto per il Luigi' 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, you will soon have Standage playing it, although with a different orchestra, the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss. It is on that Early Divertimentos set you ordered today.   15 years newer, but always fresh.

I wasn't aware about this. Great!

In addition to those 2, I also have the Freiburg Baroque with Van der Goltz directing and playing solo violin. And Rachel Podger with the OAE / Beznosiuk. Another nice version! So you're right, lots of good versions out there, as there should be. I also have the Walffisch, now that I think about it! An embarrassment of riches!

Well, we also have Guglielmo/L'Arte dell'Arco in the big box. It's embarrasing, but I bought this disc after purchasing the big box because I thought it was not included there.  So now I have two copies.

I have von der Goltz/Freiburger Baroque Orchestra too and I think they really suck. I prefer - by far - Müller-Brühl and his people playing on modern instruments. BTW, his soloist Agustin Hadelich is a great violinist, who plays these concertos in the most virtuosistic way that I have heard. When I listen to those interpretations, I'm constantly thinking: "fatto per il luigi".   

In short, I would say: Wallfisch: beautiful tone and balance - Hadelich: impassioned and virtuosistic - Von der Goltz: boring - Guglielmo: chamber music. 

Well, early on in this project, when I found out what I wide divergence there was in possible dating, I decided that right or wrong, I would use David Wyn Jones'  "Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn" for any date that was offered in a range. This latest revision (the first edition was co-authored with Robbins-Landon) is supposed to be the latest and greatest. He lists the Violin Concerto #1 as "circa 1763 - (traditional date) 1769". So since I am nearly always more inclined to believe an earlier date than a later one, and since he started in 1762 with the horn concerto and 1763 with the cello concerto to give his virtuosos a vehicle, then I think he probably did the same for Tommasini. Anyway, there is my thought process, right or wrong.

It sounds just perfect to me, as all these dates are extremely uncertain and debatable.