Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Crudblud]

I have a question about Des Knaben Wunderhorn, specifically "Der Schildwache Nachtlied". Some recordings switch between baritone and soprano for the contrasting sections, so that—for example—the "Ich kann und mag nicht fröhlich sein" and "Lieb' Knabe du musst nicht traurig sein" are made to further stand out from each other than they ordinarily would. I find it to be a grating overemphasis, but then I first came to enjoy this song cycle listening to the Boulez disc, which does not use that arrangement. Is this the invention of a would be "clever" conductor or publisher that has since been adopted by others, or did Mahler intend for it to be a performance option like the baritone substitution in Das Lied von der Erde?

[GioCar]

Do we really need another Mahler cycle?  Somehow I doubt it, however here is the first fruit of the projected cycle by Vänskä with the Minnesota Orchestra, on the BIS label.

[asin]B0711CKS48[/asin]
The 5th is among my least favourite of Mahler symphonies however this one caught my attention straight away, an energetic performance and startlingly detailed recording has put this straight to the top of my pile of Mahler 5ths.  Admittedly, it's only a very small pile, comprising just Bernstein/VPO and Gielen, up to now.  This feels like a modern improvement on the Bernstein, perhaps a bit more 'driven', and the Gielen is just too relaxed and provincial-sounding in the company of the other two.

This recording is currently available on introductory offer of high-res (96/24 FLAC) at 'normal' price, from eClassical

I've heard it and very honestly I think it is very good, in spite of the terrible Hurwitzian review.

[Cato]

I have a question about Des Knaben Wunderhorn, specifically "Der Schildwache Nachtlied". Some recordings switch between baritone and soprano for the contrasting sections, so that—for example—the "Ich kann und mag nicht fröhlich sein" and "Lieb' Knabe du musst nicht traurig sein" are made to further stand out from each other than they ordinarily would. I find it to be a grating overemphasis, but then I first came to enjoy this song cycle listening to the Boulez disc, which does not use that arrangement. Is this the invention of a would be "clever" conductor or publisher that has since been adopted by others, or did Mahler intend for it to be a performance option like the baritone substitution in Das Lied von der Erde?

If my score is any indication, a reproduction of the Universal Edition of 1905, Mahler's score simply has "Voce" and no indication is given of it being a duet. 

IMSLP also shows reproductions of turn-of-the-last-century scores with only "Voce" indicated, and no switch between a man and woman.  Certainly the idea of alternating makes sense, but...

Let me check Bruno Walter's recordings!

[Cato]

Let me check Bruno Walter's recordings!

Well....

I am amazed: I cannot find a complete recording of Des Knaben Wunderhorn with Bruno Walter conducting.  I thought such an animal would be a clue as to his preference.

There are recordings of other songs as "fillers" but so far...no luck with Der Schildwache Nachtlied.

[kishnevi]

This lists one recording of KW by Walter, limited to two songs, both with the same singer (Hilde Guden)

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/knaben.html

Singing some (four or five, depending on the recording) of the songs as duets seems to have started in the early 1960s with recordings by Kraus, Morris and Bernstein. 

[Jo498]

It is strictly speaking wrong, i.e. neither in the score nor was it common in Mahler's lifetime but some otherwise very impressive recordings (like Baker/Evans/Morris) do some songs as duets: Der Schildwache Nachtlied, Trost im Unglück, Lied des Gefangenen im Turm...
Fortunately it is usually restricted to a few songs. If one looks into the texts, several of them have different narrative voices, e.g. mother and child in "Das irdische Leben", ghost lover (or parting Soldier) and bride in "Wo die schönen Trompeten blasen", but these ones are usually not sung as duets.

[Cato]

This lists one recording of KW by Walter, limited to two songs, both with the same singer (Hilde Guden)

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/knaben.html

Singing some (four or five, depending on the recording) of the songs as duets seems to have started in the early 1960s with recordings by Kraus, Morris and Bernstein.

From a book by Mark Gibson called The Beat Stops Here: Lessons On and Off the Podium for Today's Conductor p. 111:

...there is no evidence that Mahler wanted those songs that feature two characters,  Der Schildwache Nachtlied, for example, to be sung as a duet, with two singers. The duet approach (wrong-headed though some consider it to be) was popularized through a landmark recording of Leonard Bernstein with...Christa Ludwig and her husband...Walter Berry.  I cannot believe that Mahler would have objected strenuously to this approach...  That said, the documentary evidence seems to suggest that the songs are not designed as duets...

[Karl Henning]

Lenny, you got some 'splainin' to do!

[Cato]

Lenny, you got some 'splainin' to do!

Would Mr. Bernstein have considered a trio of voices for Schubert's Erlkoenig ?   

[kishnevi]

Lenny may have popularized the idea, but he did not invent it. It was first used in 1962 by Kraus,  then 1966 by Morris, then in 1967 (orchestral) and 1968 (piano) by Bernstein. In the latter year Szell did it with Schwarzkopf and DFD, a threesome capable of resisting the bubble popularity, I think. After them, the duet format was used by, inter alia, Haitink, Inbal, Tennstedt, Colin Davis, and Gielen, not to mention two later recordings by Bernstein and recordings by lesser conductors.

[Jo498]

Would Mr. Bernstein have considered a trio of voices for Schubert's Erlkoenig ?   

For Erlkoenig one could argue for four: narrator, father, child, Erlkoenig. And on top of that the narrator enters into a dialogue with himself in the first stanza!
I guess Goethe did that maybe to prefigure the question - answer structure of later stanzas and probably also because it makes a good attention-capturing beginning.

And Erlkoenig has been done by "trios"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ60QF6map0

Apparently there is also a version with 3 singers on Vol. 24 "A Goethe Schubertiad" of the Hyperion Schubert series.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Lenny may have popularized the idea, but he did not invent it. It was first used in 1962 by Kraus,  then 1966 by Morris, then in 1967 (orchestral) and 1968 (piano) by Bernstein. In the latter year Szell did it with Schwarzkopf and DFD, a threesome capable of resisting the bubble popularity, I think. After them, the duet format was used by, inter alia, Haitink, Inbal, Tennstedt, Colin Davis, and Gielen, not to mention two later recordings by Bernstein and recordings by lesser conductors.

I tend to think that is rather pointless and is worthwhile only as some kind of stunt. The whole point of the work is how one singer can use his/her voice to animate 4 different personalities in a span of about 3 minutes.

[Madiel]

The whole point of the work is how one singer can use his/her voice to animate 4 different personalities in a span of about 3 minutes.

I guess some singers are not up to the task.

[Jay F]

I'm taking a class in Mahler's symphonies this fall. 15 weeks x almost 3 hours, nothing but Mahler. I can hardly wait.

[zamyrabyrd]

I guess some singers are not up to the task.

Voices, not singers. I don't think that Erlkoenig is convincing sung by a woman. As a light soprano I would never attempt it.

[Crudblud]

Thanks for clearing that up folks! Sorry I haven't been around, it's been a busy few weeks.

Now I have another question. Did Totenfeier and the first movement of the second symphony grow out of parts of "Der Spielmann", the second movement of Das klagende Lied? I've start to listen through Sinopoli's Mahler recordings (of the modern Mahler conductors Sinopoli is one of the few who seems to approach Mahler with a philosophy beyond "gotta do that Mahler ain't I?", and it makes for an interesting listen, though his propensity for conducting with his vocal cords can be a little off-putting) and noticed some strong similarities between the two, especially in the openings.

[Mahlerian]

Thanks for clearing that up folks! Sorry I haven't been around, it's been a busy few weeks.

Now I have another question. Did Totenfeier and the first movement of the second symphony grow out of parts of "Der Spielmann", the second movement of Das klagende Lied? I've start to listen through Sinopoli's Mahler recordings (of the modern Mahler conductors Sinopoli is one of the few who seems to approach Mahler with a philosophy beyond "gotta do that Mahler ain't I?", and it makes for an interesting listen, though his propensity for conducting with his vocal cords can be a little off-putting) and noticed some strong similarities between the two, especially in the openings.

There are semi-quotes from Das klagende Lied in both the First and Second symphonies, as well as the early set of songs usually grouped as Three Lieder that constitutes the earliest music we have outside of the Piano Quartet.

The connection between Das klagende Lied and the opening movement of the Second (as well as its original version, Totenfeier) is in Mahler's particular treatment of the Dies Irae motif.  I'd also point to the "sleeping" motif in the cantata as being similar to the second theme of that movement, as well as related to Wagner's Walkure.

[Crudblud]

There are semi-quotes from Das klagende Lied in both the First and Second symphonies, as well as the early set of songs usually grouped as Three Lieder that constitutes the earliest music we have outside of the Piano Quartet.

The connection between Das klagende Lied and the opening movement of the Second (as well as its original version, Totenfeier) is in Mahler's particular treatment of the Dies Irae motif.  I'd also point to the "sleeping" motif in the cantata as being similar to the second theme of that movement, as well as related to Wagner's Walkure.

Thanks! This is just what I was looking for.

[Mirror Image]

I don't mean to be cliche but why is the adagietto from his 5th so overwhelming.

The theme is just like a heart killer. You have the three note scale leading into the somber major 7th to crack it off and it kills me, it's so powerful, fuck me 


I can't get Mahler out of my head lately (same with certain late century modernists I've been talking about elsewhere).

I find the climax towards the end of the Adagietto to be almost unbearable. I hear more than a mere 'love letter' in this music. It's as if someone has thrown in the towel and can't deal with their depression any longer. They no longer know what to do. Mahler is always in my head, too. Not that this is a bad thing --- far from it. He was an incredible composer who wore his heart on his sleeve. People can fault him all they want to, but he wrote what he knew he had to and what he had to express. If anything, you've got to admire his honesty.

[Karl Henning]

Do our Mahler enthusiasts recommend this?—

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]