Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Does anyone have any information or could direct me to any resources that discuss the expressive intent of Mahler's style of orchestration?

[Mahlerian]

Does anyone have any information or could direct me to any resources that discuss the expressive intent of Mahler's style of orchestration?

I've never read any studies of it, though we know that the Second Viennese School certainly learned from his treatment of the orchestra.

As he described it, Mahler's intent was to heighten every single contrast as much as possible, rather than simply to use color in a picturesque way.  So a clarinet could play a trumpet call if a more muted timbre would give the precise nuance he wanted.  Lines are often broken up among various instruments or groups simply as a way of modulating the color and therefore reflecting the complexity of a line more precisely.

Earlier composers had thought of the orchestra primarily in terms of sections, with the winds grouped together, the brass and so on.  Mahler seems to have thought in a very soloistic way, where any color can be used to complement any other, even if it doesn't result in a typically "balanced" combination.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I've never read any studies of it, though we know that the Second Viennese School certainly learned from his treatment of the orchestra.

As he described it, Mahler's intent was to heighten every single contrast as much as possible, rather than simply to use color in a picturesque way.  So a clarinet could play a trumpet call if a more muted timbre would give the precise nuance he wanted.  Lines are often broken up among various instruments or groups simply as a way of modulating the color and therefore reflecting the complexity of a line more precisely.

Earlier composers had thought of the orchestra primarily in terms of sections, with the winds grouped together, the brass and so on.  Mahler seems to have thought in a very soloistic way, where any color can be used to complement any other, even if it doesn't result in a typically "balanced" combination.

This is interesting and I have noticed that a bit. I am currently looking around for musicologists/theorists who have articles focussed primarily on timbre and articulation in western composition, but they are hard to come by (and also the only advice I have ever received from professors is to just 'look at scores').

[Moonfish]

Does anyone have any information or could direct me to any resources that discuss the expressive intent of Mahler's style of orchestration?

This is interesting and I have noticed that a bit. I am currently looking around for musicologists/theorists who have articles focussed primarily on timbre and articulation in western composition, but they are hard to come by (and also the only advice I have ever received from professors is to just 'look at scores').

Jessop,
I was researching the aspect of orchestration and came across this article:  A much broader perspective, but definitely pondering the issue of orchestration. I certainly found it quite interesting. Have fun! 

'SO KLINGT WIEN': CONDUCTORS, ORCHESTRAS, AND VIBRATO IN THE NINETEENTH AND EARLY TWENTIETH CENTURIES

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Jessop,
I was researching the aspect of orchestration and came across this article:  A much broader perspective, but definitely pondering the issue of orchestration. I certainly found it quite interesting. Have fun! 

'SO KLINGT WIEN': CONDUCTORS, ORCHESTRAS, AND VIBRATO IN THE NINETEENTH AND EARLY TWENTIETH CENTURIES

Ah, this I do know, but it's also relevant to Mahler as a composer-conductor.

[Ainsi la nuit]

Having listened to all of the Mahler symphonies again (including Das Lied von der Erde of course, and even Das klagende Lied because I love it, don't question my decision to include it...) I find myself so puzzled by the 10th again. Make no mistake, I'm a huge fan of the work and have no objections with it being performed. But it is such a strange piece! I really feel like it stands a world apart from Mahler's earlier output, even though it's unmistakably his work and there are obvious connections to some of this previous pieces. Does this make any sense? Maybe it doesn't have to. And it's not like I'm not puzzled by the 9th as well!

Meanwhile, my appreciation of Das Lied von der Erde is exponentially growing. It really is a piece for a lifetime! I think the last movement might be my favourite movement out of everything that Mahler wrote.

I am humbled, overwhelmed and moved to the core by this man's stunning achievement as a musician, as an artist. What a privilege it is to be able to listen to this music!

[Cato]

I find myself so puzzled by the 10th again. Make no mistake, I'm a huge fan of the work and have no objections with it being performed. But it is such a strange piece! I really feel like it stands a world apart from Mahler's earlier output, even though it's unmistakably his work and there are obvious connections to some of this previous pieces. Does this make any sense? Maybe it doesn't have to. And it's not like I'm not puzzled by the 9th as well!

Meanwhile, my appreciation of Das Lied von der Erde is exponentially growing. It really is a piece for a lifetime! I think the last movement might be my favourite movement out of everything that Mahler wrote.

I am humbled, overwhelmed and moved to the core by this man's stunning achievement as a musician, as an artist. What a privilege it is to be able to listen to this music!

Both the Ninth and Tenth Symphonies show certain possible paths into the future: the extension of dissonance (of course, one finds that in late Bruckner in the 1890's, in works of Scriabin (e.g. the last 4 piano sonatas) and Richard Strauss (e.g. Elektra) and Schoenberg's early works), fragmented motifs, a tendency toward a chant-like simplicity, seemingly unusual juxtapositions which, nevertheless, are integrated well into the work.

We do live in wonderful times concerning recorded music: our machines give us the ability to hear so much, which normally would have been available only to those (with some money) in large cities with orchestras.  The alternative was piano reductions.

[relm1]

When you mention 10th, one must clarify if they are referring to the first movement or the complete score presumably from Cooke III?  I regard Cooke III as a first draft of what Mahler intended given that he was prone to frequent revisions however it is a significant draft of the intent and shouldn't be disguarded.  I really hate when "complete" cycles omit Cooke III considering it incomplete since there is so much significant music composed and none of the variants differ all that much so there is pretty much clarity on what Mahler intended. 

[Mahlerian]

When you mention 10th, one must clarify if they are referring to the first movement or the complete score presumably from Cooke III?  I regard Cooke III as a first draft of what Mahler intended given that he was prone to frequent revisions however it is a significant draft of the intent and shouldn't be disguarded.

He was prone to frequent revisions of his work, but in his maturity, these never concerned structure (not after he wrote out a complete continuity draft as here).  We can assume that if his normal practice had been followed in the case of the Tenth, its structure would remain unchanged from the version he left us.

If we want to be precise, we can say that the Ninth and Das Lied von der Erde are first drafts, given that we know for a fact that Mahler's normal practice was to test the work in orchestral performance, make revisions, and then perform it in a more refined version.

I really hate when "complete" cycles omit Cooke III considering it incomplete since there is so much significant music composed and none of the variants differ all that much so there is pretty much clarity on what Mahler intended.

The Tenth as we have it is a fascinating work, and it's Mahler's own work as well (with the exception of the Carpenter version, of course).  There's too much wonderful music in there to discard the whole thing, and even though the composer wished it destroyed, we should be grateful to Alma for disregarding her husband's wishes once more.

[Crudblud]

I get on most with the Wheeler version, mainly because it doesn't have the excessive percussion writing other versions seem to revel in. But really I don't find any of the completions/performing versions/whatever satisfying, it just doesn't sound like Mahler somehow. Having worked with the first scherzo a couple of years back I know that it is Mahler, of course, but the realisations have been curiosities at best for me.

[Cato]

When you mention 10th, one must clarify if they are referring to the first movement or the complete score presumably from Cooke III?  I regard Cooke III as a first draft of what Mahler intended given that he was prone to frequent revisions however it is a significant draft of the intent and shouldn't be disregarded. I really hate when "complete" cycles omit Cooke III considering it incomplete since there is so much significant music composed and none of the variants differ all that much so there is pretty much clarity on what Mahler intended.

He was prone to frequent revisions of his work, but in his maturity, these never concerned structure (not after he wrote out a complete continuity draft as here).  We can assume that if his normal practice had been followed in the case of the Tenth, its structure would remain unchanged from the version he left us.

If we want to be precise, we can say that the Ninth and Das Lied von der Erde are first drafts, given that we know for a fact that Mahler's normal practice was to test the work in orchestral performance, make revisions, and then perform it in a more refined version.

The Tenth as we have it is a fascinating work, and it's Mahler's own work as well (with the exception of the Carpenter version, of course).  There's too much wonderful music in there to discard the whole thing, and even though the composer wished it destroyed, we should be grateful to Alma for disregarding her husband's wishes once more.

Yes, the orchestration is what Mahler would most probably have tinkered with, rather than any recomposition of the work.

And yes again, the work is complete "enough" for Cooke's performing versions (III being the last word) to be considered valid and part of the canon.

I get on most with the Wheeler version, mainly because it doesn't have the excessive percussion writing other versions seem to revel in. But really I don't find any of the completions/performing versions/whatever satisfying, it just doesn't sound like Mahler somehow. Having worked with the first scherzo a couple of years back I know that it is Mahler, of course, but the realisations have been curiosities at best for me.

Mahler was changing: the Mahler of the Ninth is not the Mahler of the Fourth.  Although...the inclusion of the Purgatorio movement - right in the middle! -  of the Tenth has always intrigued me, as if Mahler were reminding himself and his listeners of his origins, and that the outer movements have their origins, their souls, in the little Third Movement, and emanate therefrom.

[Crudblud]

Of course Mahler was changing, I know well enough that from one work to the next I have grown as a composer. But something in these realisations is missing, it is not 100% Mahler—therein lies my difficulty. Of course it is good music, but it will forever be incomplete. I also have to imagine that, since even the oldest realisations are "new" compared to the works that were completed in Mahler's lifetime, and the reluctance or refusal of many conductors to bother with them at all, a real performing tradition for the 10th has yet to be established. Perhaps things will get better in the decades to come.

[Maestro267]

I've known Mahler's symphonies for over 10 years now, but I'm still spotting new things about them. Like today, it's only just clicked with me how Mahler uses a very similar motif in No. 6 (opening bars), No. 7 (main theme of 1st movt.), and No. 8 (again at the beginning, "Veni, veni creator...")

[Roasted Swan]

something in these realisations is missing, it is not 100% Mahler

Everyone has their own sliding scale of where a realisation/completion is effective/valid/chimes with one's own feelings towards a composer and work or not.  So wholly subjectively for me:

Mahler 10 - works
Bruckner 9 - doesn't work (probably for the illogical reason that the end of the existing 3rd movement seems destined for eternity anyway)
Elgar 3 - works
Moeran 2 - really doesn't work

and others I can't immediately think of.......!

[Cato]

Everyone has their own sliding scale of where a realisation/completion is effective/valid/chimes with one's own feelings towards a composer and work or not.  So wholly subjectively for me:

Mahler 10 - works
Bruckner 9 - doesn't work (probably for the illogical reason that the end of the existing 3rd movement seems destined for eternity anyway)
Elgar 3 - works
Moeran 2 - really doesn't work

and others I can't immediately think of.......!

For the Bruckner Ninth completion done by the quartet of musicologists, I feel that the final movement is at least complementary to the preceding three.  If it does not surpass the Adagio, the movement contains enough drama and surprises to punch the ears.  The final bars - at least in the Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic performance - are quite convincing and satisfying.

Mahler's Tenth via Deryck Cooke has always sounded fine to me, ever since I first obtained a copy of the score c. 1970.  0:)  But I do understand those who cannot find an attachment to both works.

[Mahlerian]

I've known Mahler's symphonies for over 10 years now, but I'm still spotting new things about them. Like today, it's only just clicked with me how Mahler uses a very similar motif in No. 6 (opening bars), No. 7 (main theme of 1st movt.), and No. 8 (again at the beginning, "Veni, veni creator...")

Mahler certainly did like those descending octaves. 

For the Bruckner Ninth completion done by the quartet of musicologists, I feel that the final movement is at least complementary to the preceding three.  If it does not surpass the Adagio, the movement contains enough drama and surprises to punch the ears.  The final bars - at least in the Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic performance - are quite convincing and satisfying.

I don't really like that recording too much, though I'm prepared to believe that the problem I have is with Rattle's performance.  I didn't like his Mahler Tenth with Berlin either, and that was the first version of that work that I listened to.  It took hearing others' treatment of the score to be convinced by it.

[André]

For the Bruckner Ninth completion done by the quartet of musicologists, I feel that the final movement is at least complementary to the preceding three.  If it does not surpass the Adagio, the movement contains enough drama and surprises to punch the ears.  The final bars - at least in the Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic performance - are quite convincing and satisfying.

Mahler's Tenth via Deryck Cooke has always sounded fine to me, ever since I first obtained a copy of the score c. 1970.  0:)  But I do understand those who cannot find an attachment to both works.

I'm getting used to the B9 with a finale, although I'm still not convinced that what is currently on offer (any of the completions) is on the same level as the first 3 movements. IOW despite appreciating its strong brucknerian traits, I feel let down slightly, which is disappointing. Had Bruckner finished the recap and coda and left, say, sketches only for the development, it might be a different story.

As for the M10, I do like it, but in this case it's the textures/harmonies/orchestration that sow doubt. After the Adagio first movement I always feel the rest sounds, shall I say, skeletal...

[relm1]

I'm getting used to the B9 with a finale, although I'm still not convinced that what is currently on offer (any of the completions) is on the same level as the first 3 movements. IOW despite appreciating its strong brucknerian traits, I feel let down slightly, which is disappointing. Had Bruckner finished the recap and coda and left, say, sketches only for the development, it might be a different story.

As for the M10, I do like it, but in this case it's the textures/harmonies/orchestration that sow doubt. After the Adagio first movement I always feel the rest sounds, shall I say, skeletal...

I really agree with you but the judgement shouldn't be based on "is this what Mahler would have written had he lived" but rather "is what we are left with of substantial quality that it deserves to be preserved as his intentions even if they were a first draft" given that he was a superb composer, I would side on yes.  Cooke III is the best we have of what Mahler wanted given we don't have Mahler's fully envisioned version and it deserves to be heard.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Everyone has their own sliding scale of where a realisation/completion is effective/valid/chimes with one's own feelings towards a composer and work or not.  So wholly subjectively for me:

Mahler 10 - works
Bruckner 9 - doesn't work (probably for the illogical reason that the end of the existing 3rd movement seems destined for eternity anyway)
Elgar 3 - works
Moeran 2 - really doesn't work

and others I can't immediately think of.......!

Bruckner 9 doesn't QUITE work, but it's important and it works for the 3rd movement -- precisely to demystify this "destined for eternity" nonsense. :-)
Mahler 10 works like a dream; my favorite being Barshai's completion; it takes risks and succeeds.
Elgar 3... oiks. However -- compared to the Elgar Piano Concerto, which decidedly does not work, I suppose it could be said to work.
Moeran 2nd is now on my explore-list.
Puccini's Turandot works, obviously.
As does Berg's Lulu, in either version I know.

[relm1]

Bruckner 9 doesn't QUITE work, but it's important and it works for the 3rd movement -- precisely to demystify this "destined for eternity" nonsense. :-)
Mahler 10 works like a dream; my favorite being Barshai's completion; it takes risks and succeeds.
Elgar 3... oiks. However -- compared to the Elgar Piano Concerto, which decidedly does not work, I suppose it could be said to work.
Moeran 2nd is now on my explore-list.
Puccini's Turandot works, obviously.
As does Berg's Lulu, in either version I know.

Which recording of Barshai's orchestration of 10 do you recommend?