Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[SurprisedByBeauty]

"Can you put the #Mahler #Symphonies on my iPod?"

Here's my choice of 1-10 + Lied + Blumine

#iPod #MahlerCycle: Rules: Every conductor only once. Intentionsl bias towards modern recordings:

1) #RiccardoChailly, @rcoamsterdam, @deccaclassics

#2) #SeijiOzawa, #BostonSymphony, #Philips/#Decca

#3) #MichaelTilsonThomas, #SFSymphony, SFSM

#4) #BernardHaitink, #ChristineSchäfer, #ConcertgebouwOrkest, #RCOLive

#5) #MarkusStenz, @guerzenichorch, @oehmsclassics (replacing Neumann/Leipzig on spontaneous decision)

#6) #PierreBoulez, #GustavMahlerJugendOrchester #GMYO, @PreiserRecords private reserve

#7) #KirillKondrashin, #LeningradPhilharmonicOrchestra, @firmamelodia - a classic amid this list

#8) #MichaelGielen, #SWRSinfonieorchester #BadenBaden & #Freiburg, #HaensslerClassic

#LvdE) #OttoKlemperer, #PhilharmoniaOrchestra, @FritzWunderlich, #ChristaLudwig, #EMI A stone-cold classic

#9) #IvanFischer, #BudapestFestivalOrchestra, #ChannelClassics

#10) (#CookeII) #KurtSanderling, #konzerthausorchesterberlin, #BerlinClassics

#Blumine, #Totenfeier, #Adagio of the 10th, #WhatTheWildFlowersTellMe (#BenjaminBritten arrangement), Paavo Jaervi, Frankfurt RSO, Virgin/Erato

[JBS]

Thanks for the info. Checking my collection, I have the complete Mozart Symphonies (Jaap ter Linden/Mozart Akademie Amsterdam) and Haydn's London Symphonies (Adam Fischer/Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra) from the same box. Several years ago there was a seller on ebay who broke up Brilliant Boxes and sold the discs individually or in batches. No idea what his source was, presumably returns.

I have the  big box, a 100CD set. Most of the cycles are, or were, issued separately. It included the whole of Fischer's Haydn.
The Mahler is the hodgepodge cycle posted a few days ago on this thread, now OOP and pricey.
[asin]B000063WA1[/asin]

[Madiel]

"Can you put the #Mahler #Symphonies on my iPod?"

Here's my choice of 1-10 + Lied + Blumine

#iPod #MahlerCycle: Rules: Every conductor only once. Intentionsl bias towards modern recordings:

1) #RiccardoChailly, @rcoamsterdam, @deccaclassics

#2) #SeijiOzawa, #BostonSymphony, #Philips/#Decca

#3) #MichaelTilsonThomas, #SFSymphony, SFSM

#4) #BernardHaitink, #ChristineSchäfer, #ConcertgebouwOrkest, #RCOLive

#5) #MarkusStenz, @guerzenichorch, @oehmsclassics (replacing Neumann/Leipzig on spontaneous decision)

#6) #PierreBoulez, #GustavMahlerJugendOrchester #GMYO, @PreiserRecords private reserve

#7) #KirillKondrashin, #LeningradPhilharmonicOrchestra, @firmamelodia - a classic amid this list

#8) #MichaelGielen, #SWRSinfonieorchester #BadenBaden & #Freiburg, #HaensslerClassic

#LvdE) #OttoKlemperer, #PhilharmoniaOrchestra, @FritzWunderlich, #ChristaLudwig, #EMI A stone-cold classic

#9) #IvanFischer, #BudapestFestivalOrchestra, #ChannelClassics

#10) (#CookeII) #KurtSanderling, #konzerthausorchesterberlin, #BerlinClassics

#Blumine, #Totenfeier, #Adagio of the 10th, #WhatTheWildFlowersTellMe (#BenjaminBritten arrangement), Paavo Jaervi, Frankfurt RSO, Virgin/Erato

On one level I want to check this out. On another I'm thinking: bugger, why is the live recording of No.1 by Kubelik no longer the "right" choice, that's as far as my collection had got...

[Cato]

On one level I want to check this out. On another I'm thinking: bugger, why is the live recording of No.1 by Kubelik no longer the "right" choice, that's as far as my collection had got...

[/b]

Rafael Kubelik is always a right choice!  0:)

[ritter]

...
#6) #PierreBoulez, #GustavMahlerJugendOrchester #GMYO, @PreiserRecords private reserve
...

Interesting list, Jens. 

I've never heard of that Sixth with PB and the GMYO. I know the classic VPO on DG, one with the Lucerne Festival Academy on Accentus, and a live bootleg of an early performance with the BBCSO.

I've never heard of the "Presier Reserve" label either (of "Presier" tout court I have many—mainly historic opera—in my collection, of course).

Is a CD of this Sixth you recommended available anywhere? I can't find mention of it anywhere .

Thanks and regards.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

On one level I want to check this out. On another I'm thinking: bugger, why is the live recording of No.1 by Kubelik no longer the "right" choice, that's as far as my collection had got...

Still totally a right choice, Kubelik is. :-)  But I did love the fact that Chailly had the orchestrated Berg Sonata on the disc.




By the way, I'm thinking: What ARE the absolutely totally CLASSIC choices for best in each symphony? You know what I mean?

1.) Kubelik/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) Mehta/WPh/Decca (I think that should be a lock; is Klemperer's still competitive? Would the English absolutely insist on either Rattle recording?)
3.) Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Maazel?
5.) Chailly/RCO/Decca (I think that's a lock. Or can Bernstein II/DG? creep in?)
6.) Barbirolli/EMI?
7.) Is there one? Can there be one? I'd go with Boulez/DG, which would be fairly recent for a "classic choice". Abbado/Chicago, probably.
8.) Solti/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer / EMI [lock]
9.) Karajan II/Berlin/DG [lock?]
10.) Rattle

Again, these are not MY favorites (though I agree with the absolute excellence of most, except perhaps Rattle 10, Abbado/Chicago 7, and of course Solti 8, which I sortofhate) but the ones that I think are the most established, consensus-friendly, widely acknowledged picks.

Interesting list, Jens. 
centus, and a live bootleg of an early performance with the BBCSO.

I've never heard of the "Presier Reserve" label either (of "Preiser" tout court I have many—mainly historic opera—in my collection, of course).
Is a CD of this Sixth you recommended available anywhere? I can't find mention of it anywhere .

Thanks and regards.

Dear Ritter,

no. "Private Reserve" was my joke about this being a recording that is not publically available. It was made by Preiser for MunichRe members (who presumably sponsored a concert or a tour of the GMYO) but not to be released. I threw it in, to be honest, to be 'a little special'. :-) Anyone having Boulez' commercial account is of well enough; it's not this is somehow wildly superior to other recordings only for being near-impossible to get. 

[ritter]

Thanks for the clarification, Jens. The Boulez completist in me will have to do with the DG and Accentus releases for the time being, but will not rest until I locate a copy of this elusive GMYO recording (even if I have to stalk the PR director of Munich RE to achieve this  ).

Cheers,

[Biffo]

Still totally a right choice, Kubelik is. :-)  But I did love the fact that Chailly had the orchestrated Berg Sonata on the disc.

By the way, I'm thinking: What ARE the absolutely totally CLASSIC choices for best in each symphony? You know what I mean?

1.) Kubelik/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) Mehta/WPh/Decca (I think that should be a lock; is Klemperer's still competitive? Would the English absolutely insist on either Rattle recording?)
3.) Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Maazel?
5.) Chailly/RCO/Decca (I think that's a lock. Or can Bernstein II/DG? creep in?)
6.) Barbirolli/EMI?
7.) Is there one? Can there be one? I'd go with Boulez/DG, which would be fairly recent for a "classic choice". Abbado/Chicago, probably.
8.) Solti/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer / EMI [lock]
9.) Karajan II/Berlin/DG [lock?]
10.) Rattle

Again, these are not MY favorites (though I agree with the absolute excellence of most, except perhaps Rattle 10, Abbado/Chicago 7, and of course Solti 8, which I sortofhate) but the ones that I think are the most established, consensus-friendly, widely acknowledged picks.

I think this proposed list shows the difficulty of choosing recordings that can be called CLASSIC, let alone 'totally CLASSIC.

I agree about Kubelik for No 1, after that I have extreme difficulties.

I heard Mehta conduct No 2 with the Philharmonia many years ago and for a long time rated it the worst performance of anything I had heard by a professional orchestra. I went completely off Mehta after that. I haven't heard the recording in question. Klemperer is always competitive in this symphony.

For No 3, if by Bernstein you mean Bernstein/NYPO I think it is a reasonable choice but would prefer Horenstein/LSO

Again, I don't know Maazel's No 4 but he is another conductor I went off after too many disappointing live performances though I never heard him in Mahler. I find it nearly impossible to nominate a 'classic' No 4 though Iknow many rate Horenstein again.

Barbirolli is my choice for No 5. I bought the Chailly cycle individually as they were released; many of them got tepid reviews but I enjoyed them all - Nos 2 & 8 are my favourites but probably not classics.

I would nominate Kubelik/BRSO for No 6 and Bernstein/NYPO for No 7.

Like the poster I don't like Solti in No 8 but find it hard to say what else has classic status. For me, it is Mahler's most problematic symphony.

Klemperer/Philharmonia etc is my all time top choice for DLvdE and my top choice of any Mahler recording.

I don't know the Karajan, I have his other recording of No 9 and would nominate Haitink/Concertgebouw (his first studio recording)

I suppose Rattle/Bournemouth is the best No 10 though I have heard little of the competition.

I am sure many reading this will have profound disagreements and their own nominations.

[mc ukrneal]

I agree with Biffo on 3/Horenstein. When people talk about classic 3rds, this is the one I hear being talked about

5- it's between Chailly and Barbirolli I think

Just some different ideas"
4- Szell
6- Karajan
7- Tennstedt live 7th? Probably not well known enough, for all that it's been around awhile.
8 - could be Ozawa perhaps? Still, it's likely Solti.

[Biffo]

I agree with Biffo on 3/Horenstein. When people talk about classic 3rds, this is the one I hear being talked about

5- it's between Chailly and Barbirolli I think

Just some different ideas"
4- Szell
6- Karajan
7- Tennstedt live 7th? Probably not well known enough, for all that it's been around awhile.
8 - could be Ozawa perhaps? Still, it's likely Solti.

Forgot about Szell, excellent choice.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

By the way, I'm thinking: What ARE the absolutely totally CLASSIC choices for best in each symphony? You know what I mean?


[...] the ones that I think are the most established, consensus-friendly, widely acknowledged picks.

With that in mind, I would insist on Horenstein/LSO for 3 (and possibly 1), and Szell for 4. Bernstein for 6 (even though I personally don't like it) because for years it was considered the polar opposite approach to Barbirolli, but equally valid.

For the 9th, there are too many classic recordings to pick just one - both Walters, Barbirolli, Haitink, possibly Giulini or Klemperer.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I think this proposed list shows the difficulty of choosing recordings that can be called CLASSIC, let alone 'totally CLASSIC.
I agree about Kubelik for No 1, after that I have extreme difficulties.

Then that's done. 

I heard Mehta conduct No 2 with the Philharmonia many years ago and for a long time rated it the worst performance of anything I had heard by a professional orchestra. I went completely off Mehta after that. I haven't heard the recording in question. Klemperer is always competitive in this symphony.

Oh, I don't doubt that. Old Mehta (even what for you must be "many years" ago) could be TERRIBLY boring and tedious. But his firebrand early recordings -- of the 2nd especially but also of the 3rd in LA -- are VERY good.

For No 3, if by Bernstein you mean Bernstein/NYPO I think it is a reasonable choice but would prefer Horenstein/LSO

Aren't both Bernstein 3rds with the NYPO? I mean the DG one. But you and mc ukrneal are right, the "Classic" is probably Horenstein. [Here we already notice that what someone considers THE classic does age you. Horenstein, for example, was already no longer the classic when I grew up. And it was exemplified by the fact that it was out of print for the longest time. (Is it still?)

Again, I don't know Maazel's No 4 but he is another conductor I went off after too many disappointing live performances though I never heard him in Mahler. I find it nearly impossible to nominate a 'classic' No 4 though Iknow many rate Horenstein again.

Again, another conductor, like Mehta, that I suffered through in New York AND Munich. Ugh! But again, there are exceptions... none of these guys got their reputation on nothing. And Maazel's Fourth is very good; one of the top five recordings of the work, I'd say. Certainly Top 10. Kathleen Battle really fits the part.

Barbirolli is my choice for No 5. I bought the Chailly cycle individually as they were released; many of them got tepid reviews but I enjoyed them all - Nos 2 & 8 are my favourites but probably not classics.

Chailly's Fifth is probably still considered THE audiophile (for regular CDs) Fifth. That's the one that never got tepid reviews. I long found it too slick, myself, but it really is very good. (I might be tempted to include Kubelik's DG 5th here, but it's not "as" classic. You're right to mention the Barbirolli 5th, which is a good contender for that spot.

I would nominate Kubelik/BRSO for No 6 and Bernstein/NYPO for No 7.

Really? Kubelik's 6th? I never knew it had that status. I'll listen to it right now; by good fortune and coincidence, the new Kubelik remastered set just arrived today. You're right about Bernstein/NY for the 7th... that one should at least be considered.

Like the poster I don't like Solti in No 8 but find it hard to say what else has classic status. For me, it is Mahler's most problematic symphony.

By all means, call me "Jens". :-) Solti's the classic, no two ways about it. I could only begin to imagine that it might be rivalled by Abravanel... and that only in the US. But not seriously. This still is "the" 8th, as much as it enervates me. Gets so under my skin, I tried to throw it under the bus in a radio interview about Mahler's 8th, recently. :-)

Klemperer/Philharmonia etc is my all time top choice for DLvdE and my top choice of any Mahler recording.

We agree again.

I don't know the Karajan, I have his other recording of No 9 and would nominate Haitink/Concertgebouw (his first studio recording)

The Karajan is terrific -- but the Haitink is superb, too... I think those two probably vie for that spot.

I suppose Rattle/Bournemouth is the best No 10 though I have heard little of the competition.

Again, we're not looking for the "best" (it wouldn't be my choice for best, either), but "the classic". You might be right all the same... but I think the 10th only made it mainstream with the second Rattle recording from Berlin. (My favorite reocrdings, at least of several years back, can be found here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Chailly's Fifth is probably still considered THE audiophile (for regular CDs) Fifth. That's the one that never got tepid reviews. I long found it too slick, myself, but it really is very good.

I remember how staggered I was by the sound of that one, when I first got it back in 1999 or so. Great performance too.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I agree with Biffo on 3/Horenstein. When people talk about classic 3rds, this is the one I hear being talked about

5- it's between Chailly and Barbirolli I think

Just some different ideas"
4- Szell
6- Karajan
7- Tennstedt live 7th? Probably not well known enough, for all that it's been around awhile.
8 - could be Ozawa perhaps? Still, it's likely Solti.

It's not Ozawa for the 8th. That's the BEST recording. Not the "Classic" recording. Was out of print for years; much underappreciated. Perhaps I flatter myself, but I think that I might have had a v. small part (at least here on GMG) in restoring it to its rightful reputation. 

Same "problem" with your 7th... if it is not well known enough, it's not a classic. I wouldn't consider that a likely fit.

However, you're spot on with the 4th. THAT's probably "THE Classic". And I hear you, re: Karajan's 6th. (I also happen to like that one very much; as I do the Barbirolli... though personal preference is besides the point here.)

I didn't stipulate those rules, but for myself I'm playing with them, anyway: I don't want any conductor more than once on this list; using Herbie for No.6 frees No.9 for Haitink...

As for the 5th, I think that's a question of when you went to college.  Between 1950 and 1975: Barbi. Between 1975 and 2000: Chailly.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

With that in mind, I would insist on Horenstein/LSO for 3 (and possibly 1), and Szell for 4. Bernstein for 6 (even though I personally don't like it) because for years it was considered the polar opposite approach to Barbirolli, but equally valid.

For the 9th, there are too many classic recordings to pick just one - both Walters, Barbirolli, Haitink, possibly Giulini or Klemperer.

Good mention of Walter! I'm not sure if he makes the cut but he belongs in the discussion. If it weren't Kubelik for No.1, he might have a shot there, too. And the 9th is very famous. (Although it's a recording with a souped-up chamber orchestra that isn't in the least "authentic" in any proper way. But it was Walter... so, presto. :-))

OK, List as modified:

1.) Kubelik/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) ___________________Mehta/WPh/Decca
3.) Horenstein/LSO/Kancha-Unicorn Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Szell/Raskin/Cleveland/Sony [lock]
5.) ___________________Chailly/RCO/Decca or Bernstein/DG or Barbirolli/EMI?
6.) ___________________Barbirolli/EMI or Bernstein/NY?
7.) ___________________Abbado/Chicago/DG or Bernstein/NY?
8.) Solti/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer/EMI [lock]
9.) __________________Karajan II/Berlin/DG or Haitink/RCO I or Walter/Columbia
10.) ___________________Rattle/Berlin/EMI?

[Biffo]

A couple of clarifications. It was Mehta in the mid-70s and it was shocking, worse because about the same time I heard an absolutely stunning performance from Levine with the LSO (soloists Jessye Norman and Margaret Price).

For Mahler 3 I mean Bernstein's CBS (now Sony) recording. The later DG recording shows the benefit of his experience with the work but he seems to have slowed down (haven't checked the timings) and is not as fresh as the earlier versions.

Probably Kubelik doesn't qualify as 'classic' in No 6 but still my favourite. You could replace him with Szell or Barbirolli's live the Philharmonia, recorded at the same time as the studio recording but better though doesn't seem to have the status.

[JBS]

I think this proposed list shows the difficulty of choosing recordings that can be called CLASSIC, let alone 'totally CLASSIC.

I agree about Kubelik for No 1, after that I have extreme difficulties.

I heard Mehta conduct No 2 with the Philharmonia many years ago and for a long time rated it the worst performance of anything I had heard by a professional orchestra. I went completely off Mehta after that. I haven't heard the recording in question. Klemperer is always competitive in this symphony.

For No 3, if by Bernstein you mean Bernstein/NYPO I think it is a reasonable choice but would prefer Horenstein/LSO

Again, I don't know Maazel's No 4 but he is another conductor I went off after too many disappointing live performances though I never heard him in Mahler. I find it nearly impossible to nominate a 'classic' No 4 though Iknow many rate Horenstein again.

Barbirolli is my choice for No 5. I bought the Chailly cycle individually as they were released; many of them got tepid reviews but I enjoyed them all - Nos 2 & 8 are my favourites but probably not classics.

I would nominate Kubelik/BRSO for No 6 and Bernstein/NYPO for No 7.

Like the poster I don't like Solti in No 8 but find it hard to say what else has classic status. For me, it is Mahler's most problematic symphony.

Klemperer/Philharmonia etc is my all time top choice for DLvdE and my top choice of any Mahler recording.

I don't know the Karajan, I have his other recording of No 9 and would nominate Haitink/Concertgebouw (his first studio recording)

I suppose Rattle/Bournemouth is the best No 10 though I have heard little of the competition.

I am sure many reading this will have profound disagreements and their own nominations.

The Mehta VP Second is an excellent recording, but if pressed I would nominate either Bernstein on DG or Tilson Thomas/SFO as my preference. The one conductor I would avoid in this symphony is Abbado. Only one of his three recordings is good (CSO). The Luzern recording is okay but nothing more.  His VPO recording is my choice for worst Mahler recording by a well known conductor.
Come to think of it,  Mehta is runner-up in that category, with his recording of the Third with the Bavarian RSO.

My list
1--no clear preference
2--Bernsteun DG
3--Gergiev LSO
4--no clear preference
5--Karajan
6--Barbarolli
7--Abbado Berlin
8--MTT/SFO
9--Zinman Zurich
10-Rattle Berlin
DLvdE--Krips with Wunderlich and DFD

[SurprisedByBeauty]

The Mehta VP Second is an excellent recording, but if pressed I would nominate either Bernstein on DG or Tilson Thomas/SFO as my preference. The one conductor I would avoid in this symphony is Abbado. Only one of his three recordings is good (CSO). The Luzern recording is okay but nothing more.  His VPO recording is my choice for worst Mahler recording by a well known conductor.
Come to think of it,  Mehta is runner-up in that category, with his recording of the Third with the Bavarian RSO.

My list
1--no clear preference
2--Bernsteun DG
3--Gergiev LSO
4--no clear preference
5--Karajan
6--Barbarolli
7--Abbado Berlin
8--MTT/SFO
9--Zinman Zurich
10-Rattle Berlin
DLvdE--Krips with Wunderlich and DFD

Yeah, that M3 with Mehta @ Munich is not a winner.

Btw.: We're trying to put together a list not of our preferences or what we think is necessarily "good" or "best" (for once  ) but what might/would be considered the absolute "Classic" recordings/recommendations for each Mahler symphony...

[JBS]

Yeah, that M3 with Mehta @ Munich is not a winner.

Btw.: We're trying to put together a list not of our preferences or what we think is necessarily "good" or "best" (for once  ) but what might/would be considered the absolute "Classic" recordings/recommendations for each Mahler symphony...

In that case, substitute Bernstein DG for everything except 5,6, 10, and DLvdE

My own opinion is that a lot of the older famous recordings are not really better than the modern ones, and often modern sonics gives the latter definite advantage.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

My own opinion is that a lot of the older famous recordings are not really better than the modern ones, and often modern sonics gives the latter definite advantage.

It occurred to me some years ago that even with a cutoff point of 1970, you could still put together a really good Mahler cycle:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19198.0.html

Also, there's an intangible something about those pioneering recordings which I miss in more recent ones.