Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Crudblud]

I have ordered the Karajan/Berlin live 9th recently and am really excited to hear it. (Does this count as a "soggy handkerchief" version, I wonder).

It has been quite a while since I heard it last, but I recall it being well balanced in spite of exhibiting some qualities that normally bother me in this symphony (and Mahler in general, he is unfortunately a swooner magnet). According to some notes I made the scherzo isn't played roughly enough for my taste, but apart from that pretty decent stuff.

[vers la flamme]

Well, I'll be excited to hear it. I also ordered the Barbirolli 9th, just because it was cheap. Between Lenny, Karajan, and Sir John I'll be set for a while on Mahler 9th recordings.

I'm listening to Pierre Boulez's Mahler 5th right now and it's very good, though I think it loses a bit of steam during the scherzo (though this could be a problem with the symphony itself...?) - very very good first two movements though.



Edit: NOOOO, there is tons of artifact on the 5th movement 

[Cato]

I'm listening to Pierre Boulez's Mahler 5th right now and it's very good, though I think it loses a bit of steam during the scherzo (though this could be a problem with the symphony itself...?) - very very good first two movements though.



Edit: NOOOO, there is tons of artifact on the 5th movement 

I do not understand what that phrase means: something negative, of course, seems to be involved.     Can you give us more specific comments?

[J]

Perhaps he meant "artifice".

[North Star]

I thought he meant his CD is faulty, with clicks and pops.

[Madiel]

I thought he meant his CD is faulty, with clicks and pops.

This was my interpretation as well.

[vers la flamme]

I thought he meant his CD is faulty, with clicks and pops.

This is exactly what I meant. I apologize, I thought that was a commonly understood term.

[Alek Hidell]

This is exactly what I meant. I apologize, I thought that was a commonly understood term.

Ah, you must have mistakenly received the Stockhausen arrangement of the piece.

[j winter]

Well, I'll be excited to hear it. I also ordered the Barbirolli 9th, just because it was cheap. Between Lenny, Karajan, and Sir John I'll be set for a while on Mahler 9th recordings.

If you enjoy Lenny, I think you'll almost certainly enjoy the Barbirolli -- his Mahler is always passionate, and interesting in approach.

When you eventually feel that you need a few more ninths, here's a classic to consider, particularly if you don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler...

[vers la flamme]

^Well, I don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler ...and I have been impressed with what I've heard of maestro Ancerl, mostly recordings of Martinu. Mahler himself was born in what is now the Czech Republic, no?

Edit: Re:Barbirolli, that is good to hear. From what I've heard, Lenny is downright tame compared to Barbirolli's Mahler.

[j winter]

^Well, I don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler ...and I have been impressed with what I've heard of maestro Ancerl, mostly recordings of Martinu. Mahler himself was born in what is now the Czech Republic, no?

Edit: Re:Barbirolli, that is good to hear. From what I've heard, Lenny is downright tame compared to Barbirolli's Mahler.

Don't know that I'd ever call Lenny tame in Mahler, but Barbirolli definitely takes a similarly romantic approach.  My favorite Barbiroli Mahler is his 6th -- that's one for the ages IMO...

[vers la flamme]

Don't know that I'd ever call Lenny tame in Mahler, but Barbirolli definitely takes a similarly romantic approach.  My favorite Barbiroli Mahler is his 6th -- that's one for the ages IMO...

This may be sacrilege, but I'm not big on the 6th, not yet anyway. Could be that I haven't heard a recording that I really like, but I find the music too heavy, too brutal, and too depressing (read (perhaps): hits too close to home) for regular listening. That being said, it's certainly great and maybe, indeed, one of his greatest symphonies. I wouldn't call it programmatic, but I would say that the arc of the music calls to mind the story of a lifelong struggle with loss, or mental illness, or perhaps both.

That Barbirolli 6th recording is extremely controversial, I gather. One either loves it or finds it a crime against humanity. Kind of the same story with Klemperer's Mahler 7th. I intend to check out both at some point in my life, though the latter terrifies me – I love Klemperer, but why is it a full 20 minutes longer than Lenny's Mahler 7th?

OK, with all that out of the way, if anyone else wants to talk about great recordings of the 6th that might change my mind, you have the floor. I've heard the Abbado/Berlin live is supposed to be pretty good. I also am interested in the Abbado/Chicago/DG Mahler 7th. The 7th is a great and underrated symphony I think.

I listened to the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony Mahler 9th earlier and really enjoyed it, even more than I did last week. Still trying to figure out what he was going for with the inner movements! The Rondo-Burleske sounds almost schizophrenic to my ears. It's a great, multifaceted symphony which rewards, I think, both repeat listening and (perhaps) varying interpretations. To Bernstein, it is a death ode to himself; to the music he loves, the great Austro-Germanic tradition; and (this part may be a stretch) to Western civilization itself, as it existed to that point in time. I don't know whether this is true. From all signs, Mahler did not see his own imminent death coming by this time and seemingly had a lot of life left in him. Of course, his whole life he was obsessed with death, but I wonder if this symphony really is by nature more elegiac than any of his other works.

Man, it feels weird having heard all of Mahler's music now... (aside from Das klagende Lied–I'm working on getting my hands on a copy–and the completed 10th). Not too long ago I was a complete neophyte, and now, I'm full-blown obsessive. What a great composer.

Rant over.

[André]

I find Barbirolli's 6th only mildly controversial. Many a conductor has taken to his heavy, deliberate, Bydlo-style approach to the first movement. For its time the recording was sensational, with a huge soundstage. You really felt engulfed in the proceedings. I still put it on my personal M6 podium.

Zander and Farberman are also controversially slow, yet hugely engrossing interpretations, in spectacular sound. At the other end of the range, there is Szell in Cleveland (fast, tough, unremitting) and Bongartz from East Germany, with very slow outer movements and very fast inner ones, making for a Punch and Judy (or Petrushka and the Moor?) musical experience. One of my favourites.

Among the more recent recordings the Currentzis made a huge impression, despite its very objective view of the last movement. Molten lava stuff.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

This may be sacrilege, but I'm not big on the 6th, not yet anyway. Could be that I haven't heard a recording that I really like, but I find the music too heavy, too brutal, and too depressing (read (perhaps): hits too close to home) for regular listening. That being said, it's certainly great and maybe, indeed, one of his greatest symphonies. I wouldn't call it programmatic, but I would say that the arc of the music calls to mind the story of a lifelong struggle with loss, or mental illness, or perhaps both.

That Barbirolli 6th recording is extremely controversial, I gather. One either loves it or finds it a crime against humanity. Kind of the same story with Klemperer's Mahler 7th. I intend to check out both at some point in my life, though the latter terrifies me – I love Klemperer, but why is it a full 20 minutes longer than Lenny's Mahler 7th?

OK, with all that out of the way, if anyone else wants to talk about great recordings of the 6th that might change my mind, you have the floor. I've heard the Abbado/Berlin live is supposed to be pretty good. I also am interested in the Abbado/Chicago/DG Mahler 7th. The 7th is a great and underrated symphony I think.

I, too, would disagree with the idea that Barbirolli's 6th is as controversial as Klemperer's 7th. There may be enough detractors from the former to keep it from being a consensus-choice front-runner, but it's widely (and rightly, IMO) well regarded. It is, however, a prime example of everything you say you don't (yet) like in the 6th, so I'm not surprised it's not done the trick for you, yet. However, I think I have a recommendation for a Sixth for you, which might prove to be the lede towards yet greater appreciation of the work: Fischer's 6th. It's to M6 what Vanska is to Beethoven's 4th. (If you know that recording. Apotheosis of dance, indeed!

Abbado's Chicago 7th was special when it came out and is one of those cases of "once-a-recommendation-always-a-recommendation". Certainly the inner movements are considerably more interesting and atmospheric in his Berlin remake. The 7th is certainly the strangest of the symphonies.


Eine Riesengrosse Nachtmusik: MTT & Mahler's 7th (A somewhat dated review.)

I listened to the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony Mahler 9th earlier and really enjoyed it, even more than I did last week. Still trying to figure out what he was going for with the inner movements! The Rondo-Burleske sounds almost schizophrenic to my ears. It's a great, multifaceted symphony which rewards, I think, both repeat listening and (perhaps) varying interpretations. To Bernstein, it is a death ode to himself; to the music he loves, the great Austro-Germanic tradition; and (this part may be a stretch) to Western civilization itself, as it existed to that point in time. I don't know whether this is true. From all signs, Mahler did not see his own imminent death coming by this time and seemingly had a lot of life left in him. Of course, his whole life he was obsessed with death, but I wonder if this symphony really is by nature more elegiac than any of his other works.

It's one approach and it works -- but actually, Mahler's finale of the 9th is the first and seemingly only time (in a symphony, at least), that he stopped composing in question marks. It's an accepting of things as they are, rather than a struggle against it, as we've not heard from him before (and which he will overthrow completely in the 10th). It's as close to Bruckner as Mahler ever comes. Serenity reigns.

Man, it feels weird having heard all of Mahler's music now... (aside from Das klagende Lied–I'm working on getting my hands on a copy–and the completed 10th). Not too long ago I was a complete neophyte, and now, I'm full-blown obsessive. What a great composer.

That's exactly how it went with most of us, too. The addiction works fast!

[Biffo]

I have never heard Barbirolli's Mahler 6 called controversial before but at around 84 mins his studio recording is on the slow side. If you want something quicker try Barbirolli - his two live recordings (Testament) clock in at 74 mins. The live recording with the New Philharmonia Orchestra is probably the one to go for as it is in stereo.

[Biffo]

^Well, I don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler ...and I have been impressed with what I've heard of maestro Ancerl, mostly recordings of Martinu. Mahler himself was born in what is now the Czech Republic, no?

Edit: Re:Barbirolli, that is good to hear. From what I've heard, Lenny is downright tame compared to Barbirolli's Mahler.

Mahler was born in the Kingdom of Bohemia, at the time part of the Austrian Empire and now the Czech Republic. Mahler always described himself as Bohemian, never German or Austrian.

There is a long tradition of performing Mahler in the Czech Republic (and its predecessor Czechoslovakia) going back to Vaclav Talich in the interwar years. More recentlly Vaclav Neumann has recorded a complete cycle with the Czech Philharmonic for Supraphon; the sound quality is variable and his 7th is marred by an excessively slow 4th movement but the cycle is well worth exploring.

Ancerl recorded the 1st and 9th symphonies. Apparently he wasn't too comfortable with Late Romantic music preferring the later repertoire though the Ancerl Gold Edition has various examples. The 1st Symphony is disappointingly bland but the modernist 9th is excellent. He only recorded the 1st because Barbirolli cancelled owing to the political situation in 1968. There is a live recording of Barbirolli in No 1 with the Czech Philharmonic dating fro 1960 (Barbirolli Society).

My favourite Czech conductor for Mahler (and a lot more) is Rafael Kubelik but he recorded mainly with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.

[vers la flamme]

Maybe it's not so controversial. There was recently a Mahler 6th thread on another forum that I frequent, and there were pages and pages of back-and-forth regarding Barbirolli's 6th, with one camp proclaiming that the conductor has completely betrayed Mahler's intentions with his tempi and other stylistic choices (including, if I'm not mistaken, his use of the Scherzo-Andante order) resulting in an interpretation that is far more bleak than "Mahler would have intended" it should be, as if any of them could know such a thing. Of course, this is where the comparison with Klemperer's 7th comes into play. It was a silly argument, but it went on and on and on. Maybe outside of a forum setting this is not nearly as much of an issue.

In any case, I will surely hear the Barbirolli Mahler 6th at some point before I die, but I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. I'll try and check out the Fischer (that one has been recommended to me before), and I'm still considering the Abbado/Berlin.

I'm listening again to the Kletzki/Dickie/Fischer-Dieskau DLvdE, which is really good. Quickly becoming a favorite. DFD really blows me away in Der Einsame im Herbst, and Kletzki seems to be himself a great Mahler conductor. I wonder why we don't hear about him much anymore...?

[Biffo]

Maybe it's not so controversial. There was recently a Mahler 6th thread on another forum that I frequent, and there were pages and pages of back-and-forth regarding Barbirolli's 6th, with one camp proclaiming that the conductor has completely betrayed Mahler's intentions with his tempi and other stylistic choices (including, if I'm not mistaken, his use of the Scherzo-Andante order) resulting in an interpretation that is far more bleak than "Mahler would have intended" it should be, as if any of them could know such a thing. Of course, this is where the comparison with Klemperer's 7th comes into play. It was a silly argument, but it went on and on and on. Maybe outside of a forum setting this is not nearly as much of an issue.

In any case, I will surely hear the Barbirolli Mahler 6th at some point before I die, but I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. I'll try and check out the Fischer (that one has been recommended to me before), and I'm still considering the Abbado/Berlin.

I'm listening again to the Kletzki/Dickie/Fischer-Dieskau DLvdE, which is really good. Quickly becoming a favorite. DFD really blows me away in Der Einsame im Herbst, and Kletzki seems to be himself a great Mahler conductor. I wonder why we don't hear about him much anymore...?

The Scherzo-Andante order argument is best avoided, it just goes on and on. Barbirolli respected Mahler's wishes, it was EMI who switched the order.

You are right to say 'as if any of them could know such a thing'.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Maybe it's not so controversial. There was recently a Mahler 6th thread on another forum that I frequent, and there were pages and pages of back-and-forth regarding Barbirolli's 6th, with one camp proclaiming that the conductor has completely betrayed Mahler's intentions with his tempi and other stylistic choices (including, if I'm not mistaken, his use of the Scherzo-Andante order) resulting in an interpretation that is far more bleak than "Mahler would have intended" it should be, as if any of them could know such a thing. Of course, this is where the comparison with Klemperer's 7th comes into play. It was a silly argument, but it went on and on and on. Maybe outside of a forum setting this is not nearly as much of an issue.

Whatever this one camp proclaimed about Barbirolli completely betraying Mahler's intentions is utter nonsense. Not the least because it is not 100% straightforward what his intentions were. Barbirolli ALWAYS used the Andante-Scherzo order... Now that is the order which Mahler used and never deviated from. So it is, by all rights, the order that might be more closely connotated with "his intentions", conventionally interpreted, at least. Now, I -- and many scholars, including H.L.de la Grange, and conductors -- firmly favor Scherzo-Andante, but if one movement-order MUST be called authentic over the other, it's Andante-Scherzo.

The Mahler Society people (i.e. Mr. Ratz) meanwhile changed the order around (fudging some evidence to make reality conform to their [again: in my opinion correct] hunch that S-A is to be preferred) and therefore the engineers of Barbirolli's M6 simply reversed the movements on the recording he issued, much to his dismay, apparently.

I've got one of those recordings and I enjoy it much better that way, so I'm not complaining. But the accusation of him allegedly betraying Mahler is absurd beyond belief.

[aukhawk]

In any case, I will surely hear the Barbirolli Mahler 6th at some point before I die, but I'm not in a hurry.

The GMG Mahler 6 blind comparison thread (from 2012, 24 recordings compared) is here, it's still an excellent read:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.60.html

It's no secret that Barbirolli was the winner.