Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Mirror Image]

+1  I've listened to a lot of Mahler for years, and I agree, the 8th is by far my least favorite.  Even watching Lenny do it on video leaves me cold.  But then I also tend to prefer the orchestral to the vocal side of things, so I think it's largely a matter of personal taste for me. 


But I have to admit, my recent attempts have been few and far between.  It's possible I haven't given it a fair chance -- I'd be curious if anyone recommends a recording that really opened it up for them....

The fact that you haven't spent a lot of time with the symphony speaks volumes and you haven't felt the need to revisit it.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Interesting to read the negativity on the 8th. For a lot of Mahler fans, it's the least favorite.

I heard Marin Alsop conduct it at Ravinia this year, and the first part was tremendous, just as a sonic experience. Plus it was done with the necessary fervor and dedication. The part where I lost interest was the long middle of the second half, i.e. all that solo singing before the big choral finish and after the instrumental intro. I just couldn't stay interested in what these people with Latin names were trying to tell me.

Still, it is a hell of a piece to hear live, and it got a huge ovation.

[j winter]

The fact that you haven't spent a lot of time with the symphony speaks volumes and you haven't felt the need to revisit it.

It's a fair cop...     Honestly, I try to keep an open mind, but there's only so much time, and an awful lot of music out there to be heard...

[Maestro267]

what these people with Latin names were trying to tell me.

Is this an unused title for an eighth movement of the Third Symphony? 

[Jo498]

Blame Goethe. It's not Mahler's fault but that weird final scene of the weird second part of Faust. (And the Latin names are not the weirdest feature by some margin.)

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Is this an unused title for an eighth movement of the Third Symphony? 

Blame Goethe. It's not Mahler's fault but that weird final scene of the weird second part of Faust. (And the Latin names are not the weirdest feature by some margin.)

Yes, I tried reading Faust Part II years ago and didn't get very far. For a supposed drama, it's quite anti-dramatic. Maybe it should be read as a philosophical treatise in verse, or something like that.

[JBS]

Interesting to read the negativity on the 8th. For a lot of Mahler fans, it's the least favorite.

I heard Marin Alsop conduct it at Ravinia this year, and the first part was tremendous, just as a sonic experience. Plus it was done with the necessary fervor and dedication. The part where I lost interest was the long middle of the second half, i.e. all that solo singing before the big choral finish and after the instrumental intro. I just couldn't stay interested in what these people with Latin names were trying to tell me.

Still, it is a hell of a piece to hear live, and it got a huge ovation.

Think of Part II as a long hymn to the Virgin, with a quick epiphanic glimpse of the "Mater Gloriosa" that leads to Faust being triumphally escorted into Heaven (although of the actual characters in Faust, only Margaret shows up in this scene, as "a Penitent").  You might want to ignore the actual text and simply listen to what Mahler does with the musical material.

But there are a lot of moving parts in this symphony, and therefore lots of places for it to go off kilter. My favorite is probably Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco, and even he suffers from a common problem: the baritone soloist near the start of Part II sounds like he is singing the passage while trying to chew the words.

I think Chailly/Gewandhaus on DVD is a good option as well.

[Cato]

Greetings and Salutations to All!

You will most probably not be surprised to read that the Eighth Symphony is a favorite of mine! 

I have never heard the 8th live but think you should definitely do so if you have the chance, I am sure it will be an overwhelming experience.

Absolutely!  I heard it in the 1990's in Cleveland with Robert Shaw conducting!  A marvelous experience on all levels!

Think of Part II as a long hymn to the Virgin, with a quick epiphanic glimpse of the "Mater Gloriosa" that leads to Faust being triumphally escorted into Heaven (although of the actual characters in Faust, only Margaret shows up in this scene, as "a Penitent").  You might want to ignore the actual text and simply listen to what Mahler does with the musical material.

But there are a lot of moving parts in this symphony...

Yes, which therefore links it to the Trinity hymn of Movement I.

"But there are a lot of moving parts in this symphony..."      

True in more than one sense!   0:)    I have the Boulez DGG recording: excellent performance!

[ritter]

I've never been much of a fan of the Eighth, I must admit. I perceive structural problems in it, which can be summarised in this image:



The 100 kg ball of course representing the dense, unrelenting shorter first part, where IMHO the listener gets not a moment of rest from the very start, with the chorus shouting their lungs out "Veni, Veni, VEEENIII". The second part has its longueurs, but to me at least is more agreeable in general. And, I must say, the ending, from Mater Gloriosa's lines "Komm! Hebe dich zu höhern Sphären!" onwards, is simply sublime...music of the spheres! (For purely personal, nostalgic reasons related to me childhood, I am also particularly fond of the "Blicket auf..." segment).

Also, seeing the work (shortcomings and all) live is a great experience . I had the chance to do so some years ago here in Madrid with the Spanish National Orchestra and (reinforced) Chorus, with distinguished vocalists, under Josep Pons. The performance was luckily filmed and released by DG on DVD (a lavishly produced set), but AFAIK only distributed in the Spanish domestic market.

[asin]B0189B4IT0[/asin]

Of the performances on record, the only one I find generally satisfying is Giuseppe Sinopoli's with the Philharmonia Orchestra on DG (an interesting but irregular cycle IMHO, with its strengths—such as the Fourth and the Eighth, which he nails—, and it's weaknesses—particularly the Sixth, which I can only describe as "irritatingly eccentric"  ).

[asin]B00005ONMO[/asin]

[André]

I'm not crazy about the 8th but certainly do not dislike it. And I love Haitink's version of it  .

[Cato]

The 100 kg ball of course representing the dense, unrelenting shorter first part, where IMHO the listener gets not a moment of rest from the very start, with the chorus shouting their lungs out "Veni, Veni, VEEENIII"

Some hyperbole there: perhaps it seems that way, but allow me to point out the nearly Kammermusik atmosphere beginning at Cue 19 (p. 21 of the Universal Edition score), which is played mainly pp and the continuation of that atmosphere into Cue 23 and beyond, played at various levels of softness, as it goes through a quasi-Webernian fragmentation (pages 26-28 of the score).  Another respite from the forte/fortissimo occurs at Cue 69 and last for nearly 10 more cues.

Perhaps the performances heard are with conductors who do not observe the quiet sections properly?

[vers la flamme]

Back to Boulez for a moment. I see SurprisedByBeauty says that Boulez did not like the work and recorded it only to complete the cycle. Is this true, do you have a source on it? Boulez has actually recorded Mahler's 8th multiple times. I'm listening to it now on Youtube and the sound is phenomenal, great singing, GREAT bass... I'm thinking of maybe getting it. On the other hand I am also looking at the Antoni Wit/Warsaw recording on Naxos which also sounds phenomenal from what I've heard. I think this work may demand modern digital sound.

I am determined to like this music. I'll buy 10 recordings until I find the right one if I have to! 

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Back to Boulez for a moment. I see SurprisedByBeauty says that Boulez did not like the work and recorded it only to complete the cycle. Is this true, do you have a source on it? Boulez has actually recorded Mahler's 8th multiple times. I'm listening to it now on Youtube and the sound is phenomenal, great singing, GREAT bass... I'm thinking of maybe getting it. On the other hand I am also looking at the Antoni Wit/Warsaw recording on Naxos which also sounds phenomenal from what I've heard. I think this work may demand modern digital sound.

I am determined to like this music. I'll buy 10 recordings until I find the right one if I have to! 

I would have to dig up the source re: Boulez. Unfortunately I don't have it off the top of my head. Re: "recorded it multiple times" - really? I was unaware of that, nor could I find anything on a cursory google- and youtube-search. It would certainly surprised me, if there was anything out there that wasn't part of those performances from which the CD recording was ultimately made.

Wit is VERY good, indeed, as far as my ears are concerned. Perhaps this will give you further ideas: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/

[vers la flamme]

I would have to dig up the source re: Boulez. Unfortunately I don't have it off the top of my head. Re: "recorded it multiple times" - really? I was unaware of that, nor could I find anything on a cursory google- and youtube-search. It would certainly surprised me, if there was anything out there that wasn't part of those performances from which the CD recording was ultimately made.

Wit is VERY good, indeed, as far as my ears are concerned. Perhaps this will give you further ideas: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/

I saw this earlier:



Couldn't find much more information on it, but looks like clearly a different recording, with the BBC Symphony, a younger Boulez.

Thanks for the word on Wit. I'm a big fan of his. I'll have to check it out some more.

[vers la flamme]

It's odd that you said that about Boulez disliking the 8th, and wrote it in that Forbes article, as I actually remember reading a Boulez interview in which he praised Mahler's 8th, saying that it was one of the best in the cycle, but I can't find it now. Could have even been a video interview.

[André]

I saw this earlier:



Couldn't find much more information on it, but looks like clearly a different recording, with the BBC Symphony, a younger Boulez.

Thanks for the word on Wit. I'm a big fan of his. I'll have to check it out some more.

I prefer this BBC version over the Berlin one. It has more of a sense of occasion - really kicks some a...

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I saw this earlier:



Couldn't find much more information on it, but looks like clearly a different recording, with the BBC Symphony, a younger Boulez.
Thanks for the word on Wit. I'm a big fan of his. I'll have to check it out some more.

Right! That 1975 recording. I remember now being just as surprised on finding out about its existence as I was now, again. :-) I haven't heard it, but I believe André readily that it's more momentous than the Berlin one. Come to think of it, there must be a 1974 New York performance (pirated) somewhere, too.

As to the interview where he might have spoken positively about M8, it might have been one with Jörg Königsdorf. I can't find it now (was it included among the Universal Edition interviews?) but could ask him if Boulez said anything about the 8th that was either positive or not.

[Cato]

Right! That 1975 recording. I remember now being just as surprised on finding out about its existence as I was now, again. :-) I haven't heard it, but I believe André readily that it's more momentous than the Berlin one. Come to think of it, there must be a 1974 New York performance (pirated) somewhere, too.

As to the interview where he might have spoken positively about M8, it might have been one with Jörg Königsdorf. I can't find it now (was it included among the Universal Edition interviews?) but could ask him if Boulez said anything about the 8th that was either positive or not.

So in the 1970's Boulez was recording large choral "symphonies" by the Central Europeans Mahler and Schoenberg: the complete original Das Klagende Lied



and one of the greatest recordings ever...



I would say that conductors do not usually conduct large, expensive choral works without having some affinity, if not enthusiasm, for the works and the composers.

[Alek Hidell]

It's ironic, isn't it? The Eighth was a big success when Mahler himself conducted its premiere in 1910 - one of the few he enjoyed in his lifetime. And now it's his least popular symphony. Tempora mutantur.

And I'm afraid I have to include myself in the chorus (ha) of those who feel rather indifferent, to put it charitably, about this symphony. I'm not a fan of much classical-style singing anyway, so to have so much of it just ain't my cuppa tea.

(On the other hand, the Third is my favorite Mahler symphony and the Second is somewhere in the top half, and they both have singing in them ... well, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, right? )

[Mirror Image]

It's ironic, isn't it? The Eighth was a big success when Mahler himself conducted its premiere in 1910 - one of the few he enjoyed in his lifetime. And now it's his least popular symphony. Tempora mutantur.

And I'm afraid I have to include myself in the chorus (ha) of those who feel rather indifferent, to put it charitably, about this symphony. I'm not a fan of much classical-style singing anyway, so to have so much of it just ain't my cuppa tea.

(On the other hand, the Third is my favorite Mahler symphony and the Second is somewhere in the top half, and they both have singing in them ... well, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, right? )

Mahler's 3rd is most definitely one of my favorites. It's kind of an unwieldy animal, but I think it works well. The 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th are prime Mahler, IMHO. Then there's all those wonderful song cycles and Das Lied von der Erde.