Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[ritter]

Some hyperbole there perhaps...

Yes, perhaps...but only a teensy bit of hyperbole. 

[aukhawk]

I am determined to like this music. I'll buy 10 recordings until I find the right one if I have to! 

I don't understand the need for this.  Here is another example, from the Sibelius thread:

... I never was too keen on the 4th, its dark and much more introspective nature is still impenetrable to me, but I haven't given up yet. I hope at any moment it clicks on me.

Why bother?  There is enough very good music out there to last anyone a lifetime, without spending valuable time listening to stuff you don't like.  I'm picky about how I spend my time with music, and if something doesn't engage me (it might even be a favourite recording that I've just turned to at the wrong moment) I'll put it aside straight away and turn to something else.  I'm listening at home, I can do that - not tied to a concert-hall middle seat.  And I have very little impulse to explore new avenues or to stray far from my well-trodden paths.  Of course I know I miss a lot of very fine music this way (including the complete outputs of some top-tier composers), but the stuff I do know is more than sufficient.

[vers la flamme]

I don't understand the need for this.  Here is another example, from the Sibelius thread:

Why bother?  There is enough very good music out there to last anyone a lifetime, without spending valuable time listening to stuff you don't like.  I'm picky about how I spend my time with music, and if something doesn't engage me (it might even be a favourite recording that I've just turned to at the wrong moment) I'll put it aside straight away and turn to something else.  I'm listening at home, I can do that - not tied to a concert-hall middle seat.  And I have very little impulse to explore new avenues or to stray far from my well-trodden paths.  Of course I know I miss a lot of very fine music this way (including the complete outputs of some top-tier composers), but the stuff I do know is more than sufficient.

The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.

[Cato]

The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.

Yes!  Some years ago here at GMG I recounted my first attempts with Pelleas und Melisande by Arnold Schoenberg.  To be sure I was rather young, but I had followed other complex works.  This one I could not grasp at first: it simply did not cohere as a "story."  Yet I knew that 1. Arnold Schoenberg was a great composer and 2. he was at least a spiritual descendant of Mahler and Bruckner, and a musico-spiritual descendant of Brahms.  Schoenberg would be worth the effort.

Then upon a fourth or fifth attempt, everything came together!  And now it is among my most favorite works!  And things like Jakobsleiter and the Violin Concerto (also great favorites) I later easily apprehended.

[Sergeant Rock]

The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.

Yes!  Some years ago here at GMG I recounted my first attempts with Pelleas und Melisande by Arnold Schoenberg...

Yes, and yes. For me it would have been the Eroica lost if I hadn't persisted over several years.

La flamme, I admire your persistence with the M8 and, as one of the few lovers of the 8th here, I really hope it eventually clicks for you. It's a stunning symphony. I think that first movement one of the most thrilling pieces Mahler composed--even though it feels occasionally like blows to the body, ears, and senses delivered repeatedly by the hammer borrowed from the 6th  Recommendations? Wit, yes, and Jens' Ozawa. My personal favorite is Chailly.

Sarge

[vers la flamme]

I just ordered the Wit, y'all talked me out of the Boulez - but I'm still curious and will probably go for it, too, eventually!

@Surprised, I may have been mixing it up with another conductor's interview. I watched the Universal Edition interview again and Boulez's comments on the 8th could be described as neutral more than favorable, discussing the challenges in maintaining tempo throughout such a massive movement as Part 2 of the 8th.

[ritter]

... I may have been mixing it up with another conductor's interview. I watched the Universal Edition interview again and Boulez's comments on the 8th could be described as neutral more than favorable, discussing the challenges in maintaining tempo throughout such a massive movement as Part 2 of the 8th.

I also recall reading (in a Spanish music magazine) an interview with Boulez stating that he thought he wouldn't record the Eighth, as he didn't care that much for the work. I think that interview was later included in an anthology of such conversations made by Gerard Akoka (in French), but I cannot locate it now (I've recently moved into a new flat, and my books are on their shelves, but not yet in any kind of order  ).

Later I was told by a friend (no certifiable source mentioned) that Boulez financed the DG recording of the Eighth himself with the sole intention of completing his cycle.

The earlier version from the BBC is not a "recording", but rather the broadcast of a live concert at the Proms IIRC. I have it, but haven't listened to it yet (and again, my CDs are completely disorganized at this point, so I can't locate it--I think I have some work to do this weekend in this respect  ).

[Madiel]

I would say that conductors do not usually conduct large, expensive choral works without having some affinity, if not enthusiasm, for the works and the composers.

But conductors do conduct symphonies they're not fond of in order to fulfil a contractual obligation to complete a cycle.

I'm not sure what the point is of bringing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder into it, either. It doesn't follow that if (presumably) Boulez liked Gurrelieder, he must therefore like some other large choral work. That makes about as much sense as saying that because I like playing a particular piano sonata I like playing piano sonatas as a general class. Heck, the fact that I love playing some Beethoven piano sonatas doesn't mean I like playing each and every one of them.

[Cato]

But conductors do conduct symphonies they're not fond of in order to fulfil a contractual obligation to complete a cycle.

I'm not sure what the point is of bringing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder into it, either. It doesn't follow that if (presumably) Boulez liked Gurrelieder, he must therefore like some other large choral work. That makes about as much sense as saying that because I like playing a particular piano sonata I like playing piano sonatas as a general class. Heck, the fact that I love playing some Beethoven piano sonatas doesn't mean I like playing each and every one of them.

No, I was simply reminiscing that he brought out recordings of large choral works in the 1970's, and that one of them was a Mahler work.  Certainly if the money is good enough, a conductor might take on a work not at the top of his list of favorites.   

[JBS]

No, I was simply reminiscing that he brought out recordings of large choral works in the 1970's, and that one of them was a Mahler work.  Certainly if the money is good enough, a conductor might take on a work not at the top of his list of favorites.   

Well, I'd say that Gurrelieder and Klagende Lied are the works were Mahler and Schoenberg (early Schoenberg, at least) approach each other most closely,

[vers la flamme]

Well, I'd say that Gurrelieder and Klagende Lied are the works were Mahler and Schoenberg (early Schoenberg, at least) approach each other most closely,

I remember reading a post here once in which someone posited that there was a link between Das Klagende Lied, Gurre-Lieder, Sibelius' Kullervo and Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony, all early, huge choral works with many similarities from four composers who went in completely different directions from one another. Sign of the times, maybe.

[Madiel]

The appetite for huge and the appetite for choral were both much larger at that point in history, yes.

[vers la flamme]

Listening to the Barbirolli/Berlin Mahler 9th this morning. I swear, this symphony is a slow burn, ever revealing itself to me, layer by layer. This has definitely been my most meaningful listening experience with this work. I think hearing the previous 8 symphonies and Das Lied in the weeks leading up to today have helped me to understand where he was coming from with this music.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Mahler 9, Barbirolli

Listening to the Barbirolli/Berlin Mahler 9th this morning. I swear, this symphony is a slow burn, ever revealing itself to me, layer by layer. This has definitely been my most meaningful listening experience with this work. I think hearing the previous 8 symphonies and Das Lied in the weeks leading up to today have helped me to understand where he was coming from with this music.

Thumbs up!

It helps, probably, that when having reached the Ninth, you will have already made your way through three of the four more 'difficult' Mahler symphonies, consecutively (7, 8, DLvdE). Reaching the Ninth is almost like feeling: "Ah, that's what you've been after, all these years."

[Jo498]

I'd say Das Lied von der Erde is actually one of the least difficult symphonies, or in the middle. For me the most difficult were/are 8,3,7,6 and 9, but except for 8 all with parts/movements that are fairly accessible.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I'd say Das Lied von der Erde is actually one of the least difficult symphonies, or in the middle. For me the most difficult were/are 8,3,7,6 and 9, but except for 8 all with parts/movements that are fairly accessible.

In order of difficulty (however loose a concept that may be), for me:

7
Lied
3

...and the rest I've kind-of always loved. In the Ninth I always forget about the inner movements and the Eighth can have its longeurs in the second part, but I jumped on those very readily. The Lied may be simpler, but for whatever reason, it didn't click with me for the longest time. Six I also loved right out of the gate. With Barbirolli, actually. At least that was when I realized just how much I love the 6th. And with No.3 I found that Boulez' recording helped me immensely in sort-of lifting the carpet and letting me look at the machinations inside. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.)

[JBS]

In order of difficulty (however loose a concept that may be), for me:

7
Lied
3

...and the rest I've kind-of always loved. In the Ninth I always forget about the inner movements and the Eighth can have its longeurs in the second part, but I jumped on those very readily. The Lied may be simpler, but for whatever reason, it didn't click with me for the longest time. Six I also loved right out of the gate. With Barbirolli, actually. At least that was when I realized just how much I love the 6th. And with No.3 I found that Boulez' recording helped me immensely in sort-of lifting the carpet and letting me look at the machinations inside. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.)

I fell in love with the inner movements of the Ninth the very first time I heard them (which would have been Walter's 1938 VPO recording, btw).  The Finale merely sealed the deal.

[Jo498]

For me it is/was sheer length with the 3rd. It's not more complex than most of the others but I tend to feel tired already after the first movement. Than a 15 min menuet which is kind of boring and so on. So it's less perplexity than a mixture of "so what?" and "Why not everything half as long?". The 8th I still don't know well enough to really comment on.
I found 1,2,4 and 5 fairly accessible early on, the first two finales are too sprawling but usually entertaining enough. I think I had some problems, maybe again failing concentration at the end of a lengthy piece with "Der Abschied" as a newbie and the two short tenor songs are very lightweight and may appear trivial, but overall Das Lied was emotionally quite easy to get. (I also liked most of the other Mahler song cycles almost immediately and knew many of them before several of the symphonies.) Admittedly, I still don't quite think of it as a symphony but a huge song cycle that is more symphonically integrated than the other song cycles.

The 9th has a tough first movement, but once one is somewhat familiar with it, all is well as the 3 remaining movements are less complex and more accessible in most respects.
With the 6th for me again the finale is the problem. By far the most difficult movement of the work (whereas the 1st movement is maybe one of the most clearly and obviously structured Mahler pieces) and one has already spent 45 min with sometimes dark and harrowing music. Still, the 6th is probably my favorite after the 9th now. The 7th has a first movement that is only rivalled by the 9th in difficulty, I think, then 3 fairly easy (if maybe confusing because of their different characters) pieces and a finale that for most seems more an emotional than a musical stumbling block. While "Rondo" might play down some of the complexity, it basically is just a huge Rondo after all and once one accepts the hilarity there is no reason not to enjoy the ride.

[vers la flamme]

I'd say Das Lied von der Erde is actually one of the least difficult symphonies, or in the middle. For me the most difficult were/are 8,3,7,6 and 9, but except for 8 all with parts/movements that are fairly accessible.

Agreed! @Surprised, I also agree that having 7, 8, and DLvdE to lead up to the 9th was helpful! I find the 9th to be one of the more challenging ones, but less so than the 8th and maybe the 7th. Das Lied was love on first listen for me but I understand some find it more challenging too.

That was an extremely enjoyable listen this morning though!! Great performance!! I have had themes from the symphony in my head all day

[aukhawk]

I don't see anything difficult or challenging about the 9th at all.  The first movement is Mahler at his absolute best, sustained from start to finish.  The middle movements can be viewed (as in many other symphonies) as light relief.  I remember seeing Roger Norrington conduct the 9th (on a televised Prom) and at the end of the 2nd movement he drew a laugh from the audience - it ends on a trite little upturned phrase on the flute and as he conducted this he turned to the audience and made a comical clown-like gesture.
Having stood through an entire 9th myself - with the more serious-minded Haitink conducting - such relief is very welcome.