Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Mahlerian]

I liked the Purgatorio. I actually found it more interesting than the scherzi, probably because of Mahler's own extant orchestration.

Mahler did start orchestrating the first Scherzo as well, but the draft is clearly not very complete. The Purgatorio, likewise, is actually only orchestrated for the first few pages.

[Biffo]

I love the Adagio of the Tenth Symphony as a stand-alone piece

So do I, that's how I got to know it. It came as the fill-up on the fourth LP side of Kubelik's recording of Symphony No 6. At some point, can't remember when but possibly around the time it was first issued, I borrowed Ormandy's recording of the completion from a record library but it was many years before I bought a complete version of my own (possibly Rattle/Berlin PO).

[krummholz]

The Adagio is the only movement that Bernstein ever recorded, I believe, because it's the only one that he felt was in final form at the time of Mahler's death. I think I read that it is the only one that he had completed in full score, and that seems to be borne out by the three performances I've heard, or maybe four (Ormandy, Levine, Rattle... maybe Sinopoli? I'll have to check)

It is definitely beautiful, but I agree with Deryck Cooke (I think it was) who said that trying to glean Mahler's intentions for the 10th Symphony on the basis of the Adagio and Purgatorio alone would be like trying to understand the 5th going entirely from the first movement and the Adagietto. The Finale of the 10th, in particular, contains some of the most strikingly beautiful music (IMO) that he ever composed. I've always wondered if that movement would have signaled a sea change in his music going forward, or would have proven to be just a singular example of a different, somewhat simpler style. Mahler's music overall became more chromatic in his later years and some have speculated that he might have broken out of tonality soon after Schoenberg did, had he lived. Obviously, we'll never know.

[Herman]

I just listened to the Haitink and Rattle recordings of the 10 Adagio. Both with the Berlin Philharmonic.

I can't help but think that Rattle brings out the dark and light better, notably with those shrieking oboe and flute choirs, and those low stretched-out double-bass notes. Haitink is making a beautiful narrative. Rattle delivers despair. Obviously very few conductors have spent that much time with this work as Rattle.

I used to have the Rattle / Bournemouth LPs in the eighties.

Alas I cannot help but think the rest of nr 10 is incomplete, it's mostly bare bones, which is not what Mahler is about. It also gets a little too close to a musical demonstration of his psychic state at the time, rather than music.

[vers la flamme]

I just listened to the Haitink and Rattle recordings of the 10 Adagio. Both with the Berlin Philharmonic.

I can't help but think that Rattle brings out the dark and light better, notably with those shrieking oboe and flute choirs, and those low stretched-out double-bass notes. Haitink is making a beautiful narrative. Rattle delivers despair. Obviously very few conductors have spent that much time with this work as Rattle.

I used to have the Rattle / Bournemouth LPs in the eighties.

Alas I cannot help but think the rest of nr 10 is incomplete, it's mostly bare bones, which is not what Mahler is about. It also gets a little too close to a musical demonstration of his psychic state at the time, rather than music.

Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Rattle is delivering the Adagio as the first movement of a great symphony, while Haitink is performing it as a standalone piece? Just a thought, I haven't heard the Haitink.

I would agree that the 10th sounds totally incomplete to my ears. People like to point to the fact that every bar is accounted for by Mahler's hand, but that doesn't mean as much to me as some would have it. Still worth hearing, for sure. Some people even say this is their favorite Mahler symphony.

[JBS]

Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Rattle is delivering the Adagio as the first movement of a great symphony, while Haitink is performing it as a standalone piece? Just a thought, I haven't heard the Haitink.

I would agree that the 10th sounds totally incomplete to my ears. People like to point to the fact that every bar is accounted for by Mahler's hand, but that doesn't mean as much to me as some would have it. Still worth hearing, for sure. Some people even say this is their favorite Mahler symphony.

I think the best Adagio as a stand alone movement is the one Gergiev did for his LSO cycle.  He gets the emotion of the movement better than anyone else. (I would call it anguish, not despair.)

[Mahlerian]

I would agree that the 10th sounds totally incomplete to my ears. People like to point to the fact that every bar is accounted for by Mahler's hand, but that doesn't mean as much to me as some would have it. Still worth hearing, for sure. Some people even say this is their favorite Mahler symphony.

It is structurally complete, and unless Mahler changed his normal procedures, what we have contains the primary argument of the Tenth as it would have been if he had lived another year or two. What would have happened is that he would have filled things in, fleshed out the instrumentation, and so forth, but what survives doesn't require any guesswork on the part of editors regarding form or melodic development or (mostly) harmony.

The manuscript is available online for anyone to view.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.10_(Mahler%2C_Gustav)

(Under the "Sketches and Drafts" tab)


I don't think of it as a completed Mahler work like the other 9 (or 10, if you count Das Lied), but what we do have is valuable and shows that the composer was still at the height of his creative powers until the very end.

[Herman]

Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Rattle is delivering the Adagio as the first movement of a great symphony, while Haitink is performing it as a standalone piece? Just a thought, I haven't heard the Haitink.

Hard to say, since I tend to listen to both as standalone. The funny thing of course (same with Bruckner 9) is that one's experience and investment in this piece (the Adagio) has been shaped by the historical fact that it's usually performed as a standalone piece. The end with the ever higher ever more etherical strings seems to encourage that perception.

There are two differences between Rattle and Haitink vis a vis the 10 Adagio. Rattle is a fierce advocate of nr 10, in Cooke's completion. Haitink has to my knowledge never performed the whole symphony and my guess is he only recorded the Adagio as a way to fill out LPs (Concertgebouw) or CDs (Berlin). From 1985 onwards Haitink (that makes the second half of his career) has been steadily de-experimenting and shrinking his repertoire. Rattle went to Berlin with the explicit agenda to play wild stuff. Rattle recorded the entire symphony nr 10 with the Bournemouth, Birmingham and Berlin. No conductor has performed the Cooke version as frequently as Rattle.

I have a recollection (I tried checking this online) that the only time Rattle conducted the Concertgebouw was in 1986, with this symphony, and after this concert the orchestra said "Don't call us, we'll call you," and consequently didn't. Amsterdam likes its Mahler a certain way. After this Rattle has either conducted the Rotterdam Philharmonic or visited Amsterdam with the LSO or Berlin Ph. It's one of the big missed opportunities in the music world.

The other difference is the EMI recording of Nr 10 with the Berlin is a live recording, which may account for the greater rethorical liveliness.

[Biffo]

Hard to say, since I tend to listen to both as standalone. The funny thing of course (same with Bruckner 9) is that one's experience and investment in this piece (the Adagio) has been shaped by the historical fact that it's usually performed as a standalone piece. The end with the ever higher ever more etherical strings seems to encourage that perception.

There are two differences between Rattle and Haitink vis a vis the 10 Adagio. Rattle is a fierce advocate of nr 10, in Cooke's completion. Haitink has to my knowledge never performed the whole symphony and my guess is he only recorded the Adagio as a way to fill out LPs (Concertgebouw) or CDs (Berlin). From 1985 onwards Haitink (that makes the second half of his career) has been steadily de-experimenting and shrinking his repertoire. Rattle went to Berlin with the explicit agenda to play wild stuff. Rattle recorded the entire symphony nr 10 with the Bournemouth, Birmingham and Berlin. No conductor has performed the Cooke version as frequently as Rattle.

I have a recollection (I tried checking this online) that the only time Rattle conducted the Concertgebouw was in 1984 or something, with this symphony, and after this concert the orchestra said "Don't call us, we'll call you," and consequently didn't. Amsterdam likes its Mahler a certain way. After this Rattle has either conducted the Rotterdam Philharmonic or visited Amsterdam with the LSO or Berlin Ph. It's one of the big missed opportunities in the music world.

The other difference is the EMI recording of Nr 10 with the Berlin is a live recording, which may account for the greater rethorical liveliness.

Some interesting thoughts there on the Concertgebouw. While he was their Chief Conductor Chailly recorded a Mahler cycle but for the completed No 10 he used the Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin. Presumably the Concertgebouw weren't prepared to play it. The booklet offers no enlightenment.

[Herman]

The Concertgebouw ethos is very much about Beaty and Truthfulness.

Truthfulness to the composer is hard to achieve when you're looking at the Tenth, where the truth is very hard to find from the second mvt onwards. I think something snapped when Rattle was advocating playing nr 10; add to this Rattle's habit of underlining certain phrases in a way that the RCOA doesn't find in line with either Beauty nor Truth. (Of course the mystery is they loved playing with Bernstein in the same era, who wasn't averse to some emphasis either, apart from other quirks.)

The weird thing is, virtually no one who was in the orchestra in the early eighthies is in the orchestra now. And still these things are set in stone forever. We don't do Mahler 10. We won't play with Rattle. I mean, if you can choose between playing with Rattle or with Gatti, the choice seems easy....

[Total Rafa]

I realise some people can't get on board with a 'full' 10th, but the finale is a wonderful piece of music. A slow procession with epic clangs of bass drum lead to a glorious flute passage, and then from there it is a vintage Mahler adagio.

I recall Gielen does a really startling opening to this movement. Thomas Dausgaard with the Seattle Symphony is another worthwhile recording.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Rattle recorded the entire symphony nr 10 with the Bournemouth, Birmingham and Berlin.

Are you sure he recorded it with Birmingham? I think only Bournemouth and Berlin, actually. (Unless there's a BBC Magazine recording or something of that sort that I'm overlooking.)

[Herman]

You're right. I jumped to conclusions seeing new cover art for the same old Bournemouth recording, assuming it was with the Birmingham.

[Herman]

(I would call it anguish, not despair.)

Very likely it's what I'm hearing, in these times...

[vers la flamme]

It is structurally complete, and unless Mahler changed his normal procedures, what we have contains the primary argument of the Tenth as it would have been if he had lived another year or two. What would have happened is that he would have filled things in, fleshed out the instrumentation, and so forth, but what survives doesn't require any guesswork on the part of editors regarding form or melodic development or (mostly) harmony.

The manuscript is available online for anyone to view.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.10_(Mahler%2C_Gustav)

(Under the "Sketches and Drafts" tab)


I don't think of it as a completed Mahler work like the other 9 (or 10, if you count Das Lied), but what we do have is valuable and shows that the composer was still at the height of his creative powers until the very end.

I knew all that. When I say that it still feels incomplete, what I think I'm saying is that the process of fleshing out the instrumentation, from Mahler's own hand, adds so much to the music. I'm guessing, based on my contrasting reactions between the 10th and any other Mahler symphony, is that this is where the music really comes alive, for me. Of course, the structure is important, and I'm glad we have these performing editions. They're worth hearing, and I wouldn't go as far as saying the Cooke version is "not Mahler" as so many have. But I don't think I will ever like the 10th as much as any other Mahler symphony because it is missing those final completing touches.

Essentially, I agree with your final statement. I wouldn't say his powers were on the wane or anything like that.

Mahlerian—and actually I hope others feel free to weigh in on this too—do you have any perspective on the opinion I've sometimes heard repeated that the 9th and Das Lied are also "incomplete" because he never got to hear them performed and subsequently edit them?

[Biffo]

I knew all that. When I say that it still feels incomplete, what I think I'm saying is that the process of fleshing out the instrumentation, from Mahler's own hand, adds so much to the music. I'm guessing, based on my contrasting reactions between the 10th and any other Mahler symphony, is that this is where the music really comes alive, for me. Of course, the structure is important, and I'm glad we have these performing editions. They're worth hearing, and I wouldn't go as far as saying the Cooke version is "not Mahler" as so many have. But I don't think I will ever like the 10th as much as any other Mahler symphony because it is missing those final completing touches.

Essentially, I agree with your final statement. I wouldn't say his powers were on the wane or anything like that.

Mahlerian—and actually I hope others feel free to weigh in on this too—do you have any perspective on the opinion I've sometimes heard repeated that the 9th and Das Lied are also "incomplete" because he never got to hear them performed and subsequently edit them?

I am not sure about the 9th Symphony but Mahler had DLvdE engraved and published so he must have been reasonably satisfied with it. However, he did that with other symphonies and then revised them. You have to ask how far you want to go as Mahler never heard the final version of the 5th Symphony; he continually revised the orchestration and only handed the score over to a colleague to have published shortly before he died.

[Mahlerian]

Mahlerian—and actually I hope others feel free to weigh in on this too—do you have any perspective on the opinion I've sometimes heard repeated that the 9th and Das Lied are also "incomplete" because he never got to hear them performed and subsequently edit them?

It is true that he would regularly make changes to orchestration after he got the opportunity to hear his works played in rehearsal, a process which led to, say, the addition of the piano in the Eighth to reinforce the sonority of harp and celesta, or the removal of a lot of the percussion from the Sixth's outer movements.  Still, the basic sound of the piece wasn't changed by these alterations; they were merely a way of refining and clarifying the sound that was already there.

There are places in the first and third movements of the Ninth that I think might have ended up being lightened as a result of this process, but for the most part, I think that both of his last completed works contain some of the best orchestration of Mahler's career. I wouldn't say they were any more incomplete than the Sixth Symphony in its first published version, before all of the orchestration changes he made in rehearsals for the first performance.

[Herman]

both of his last completed works contain some of the best orchestration of Mahler's career. I wouldn't say they were any more incomplete than the Sixth Symphony in its first published version, before all of the orchestration changes he made in rehearsals for the first performance.

My guess is his technique for orchestration and just the entire pack of skills needed to create great symphonic music got better and better as time passed and more Mahler symphonies were finished and premiered.

[vers la flamme]

I'm listening to Mahler's 4th, the Reiner/Chicago recording which I've finally got on CD. It was the first I ever heard and I still call it a great recording, one of the more fleet footed ones, but with some nice clarity and excellent playing from the '50s Chicagoans.

Anyway, I'm reading along with the score and there are some mind blowing details in the score that I've never noticed before. I really paid attention to that "bucolic" moment that Ritter spoke of the other day, and wow, I never realized how eloquently scored that moment is. Further, and I may have noticed this before, but a trumpet during the development (I believe it's after rehearsal mark 17) plays the exact opening theme to the 5th symphony, down to the same key. Anyone else notice this? I got the chills when I heard it while reading along with the score.

I can't remember my thoughts on Lisa della Casa in the finale as it's been so long since I've heard it. OK, she's really good, too, though I think I prefer Reri Grist in the Bernstein/New York.

Overall a phenomenal performance. I think the 2nd movement is the best I've ever heard. The 3rd is really good too despite being maybe a little too brisk.

[krummholz]

Further, and I may have noticed this before, but a trumpet during the development (I believe it's after rehearsal mark 17) plays the exact opening theme to the 5th symphony, down to the same key. Anyone else notice this? I got the chills when I heard it while reading along with the score.

Oh yes, definitely. It's a perfect example of foreshadowing. I've always wondered if Mahler had already conceived of the Trauermarsch at that point, and was intentionally planting a foretaste of it there, in one of the darker passages of the 4th.