Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[ritter]

And reportedly, in at least one case he programmed a Wagner work, the Die Meistersinger prelude, along with his own, explicitly to draw attention to the close resemblance between the main theme of the Wagner and that of the finale of his 7th Symphony.

...

Interesting. Didn't know about that. What I do know is that my first reaction when hearing the finale of the Seventh was "This is the prelude to Die Meistersinger gone berserk!" 

Do you have any source for that report that I could look up?

Cheers.

[krummholz]

Interesting. Didn't know about that. What I do know is that my first reaction when hearing the finale of the Seventh was "This is the prelude to Die Meistersinger gone berserk!" 

Do you have any source for that report that I could look up?

Cheers.

Gosh, it's been so long since I read that, I don't recall the source. I did, however, find this little tidbit in an essay at the website mahlerfoundation.org:

"There is no doubt that he intended to make the connection between the final march subject and Wagner's Meistersinger march. He suggested as much explaining why he programmed the prelude to demise to the singer in the same concert in which he premiers the seventh, hoping that the audience would make the connection."

(No, I have no idea what the word "demise" means in this context; it appears in several places in that paragraph and I suspect the article is a literal translation from a different language.)

From https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-5-rondo-finale/

[Crudblud]

(No, I have no idea what the word "demise" means in this context; it appears in several places in that paragraph and I suspect the article is a literal translation from a different language.)

I have a sneaking suspicion that "prelude to demise to the singer" is a mishearing of "Prelude to Die Meistersinger". Possibly a machine transcription error.

[krummholz]

I have a sneaking suspicion that "prelude to demise to the singer" is a mishearing of "Prelude to Die Meistersinger". Possibly a machine transcription error.

Could very well be, however if that's the case then one wonders how the machine got "kapellmeister musik" almost correct (spelled musik as "musique"). The weird quirks of software, I guess...

[ritter]

Gosh, it's been so long since I read that, I don't recall the source. I did, however, find this little tidbit in an essay at the website mahlerfoundation.org:

"There is no doubt that he intended to make the connection between the final march subject and Wagner's Meistersinger march. He suggested as much explaining why he programmed the prelude to demise to the singer in the same concert in which he premiers the seventh, hoping that the audience would make the connection."

(No, I have no idea what the word "demise" means in this context; it appears in several places in that paragraph and I suspect the article is a literal translation from a different language.)

From https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-5-rondo-finale/

Thanks! Will read that with interest.

I have a sneaking suspicion that "prelude to demise to the singer" is a mishearing of "Prelude to Die Meistersinger". Possibly a machine transcription error.

Yep, looks very probable that is the case. 

[JBS]

I just went looking through the NYPO program archives
1)He did not perform the Seventh in New York--he did do the First and Fourth, plus Kindertotenlieder, and some songs from the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer cycles.
2) Beethoven appears so often that either he or the Philharmonic audience (or both) must have been obsessed with LvB. A few programs were all Beethoven affairs.
3) They were obsessed almost as much with Wagner. He got some all Wagner programs. (Tchaikovsky got one program to himself.)
4) The Prelude to Act 1 of Die Meistersinger was performed so often, on so many different programs, that the musicians could probably have done it in their sleep.  If it was as popular with German audiences, then (if it did appear on the same concert as the Seventh) the motive was more likely to be "please the crowd" than priming their ears for the symphony.

[relm1]

I just went looking through the NYPO program archives
1)He did not perform the Seventh in New York--he did do the First and Fourth, plus Kindertotenlieder, and some songs from the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer cycles.
2) Beethoven appears so often that either he or the Philharmonic audience (or both) must have been obsessed with LvB. A few programs were all Beethoven affairs.
3) They were obsessed almost as much with Wagner. He got some all Wagner programs. (Tchaikovsky got one program to himself.)
4) The Prelude to Act 1 of Die Meistersinger was performed so often, on so many different programs, that the musicians could probably have done it in their sleep.  If it was as popular with German audiences, then (if it did appear on the same concert as the Seventh) the motive was more likely to be "please the crowd" than priming their ears for the symphony.

Also his second was in there a few times.  Do you think he was an innovative programmer?  His programs would seem right at home in any concert hall today but that could mean 100 years ago, lots of that music was cutting edge (Richard Strauss was 46 years old so might have been an up and comer).  No one had heard Der Rosenkavalier (1911) yet.  I don't think Mahler was famous as a composer yet so NYC audiences might have found this to be cutting edge European music with some well-known works to pack the hall.

[krummholz]

Also his second was in there a few times.  Do you think he was an innovative programmer?  His programs would seem right at home in any concert hall today but that could mean 100 years ago, lots of that music was cutting edge (Richard Strauss was 46 years old so might have been an up and comer).  No one had heard Der Rosenkavalier (1911) yet.  I don't think Mahler was famous as a composer yet so NYC audiences might have found this to be cutting edge European music with some well-known works to pack the hall.

I agree. But as to whether the Die Meistersinger prelude was programmed along with M7 purely as a crowd pleaser, as the previous poster said, I wish I could find my original source as it said that Mahler was explicit (possibly in an interview or something he wrote) that he wanted the audience to make the connection between his finale and the Wagner. The essay I linked-to sort of says that (says Mahler "suggested as much, explaining why"), but without the context, and given the other errors in the transcription or whatever it was, it's really hard to say whether that should be taken literally. (Of course, I think it should, but that's because I saw the same claim elsewhere.)

[Leo K.]

I'm walking on air - I now have tickets to see my 1st Mahler 3rd live in November, with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota orchestra. I've become a fan of his cycle and I like his Sibelius too (both recorded cycles are excellent).

[LKB]

I attended a concert with MTT conducting the San Francisco Symphony in the Third maybe thirty years ago.

Tbh, l don't remember all that much. Perhaps because MTT is better with late Mahler, or perhaps because I'm an old fart with a poor memory.

In any event, l hope the stars align and you experience a Third for the ages. 

[krummholz]

The 3rd is the only Mahler symphony I've ever heard live - but it wasn't by a conductor of MTT's stature, or by an orchestra of the SFSO's standing... it was a local orchestra in Flint, MI, about 15 years ago or so. It was, still, a very good performance.

[JBS]

I agree. But as to whether the Die Meistersinger prelude was programmed along with M7 purely as a crowd pleaser, as the previous poster said, I wish I could find my original source as it said that Mahler was explicit (possibly in an interview or something he wrote) that he wanted the audience to make the connection between his finale and the Wagner. The essay I linked-to sort of says that (says Mahler "suggested as much, explaining why"), but without the context, and given the other errors in the transcription or whatever it was, it's really hard to say whether that should be taken literally. (Of course, I think it should, but that's because I saw the same claim elsewhere.)

His use of the Meistersinger march gets extra tang if it was a sort of "top of the pops" selection.

Also his second was in there a few times.  Do you think he was an innovative programmer?  His programs would seem right at home in any concert hall today but that could mean 100 years ago, lots of that music was cutting edge (Richard Strauss was 46 years old so might have been an up and comer).  No one had heard Der Rosenkavalier (1911) yet.  I don't think Mahler was famous as a composer yet so NYC audiences might have found this to be cutting edge European music with some well-known works to pack the hall.

Debussy and Elgar appear on the programs two or three times each. Busoni and Schwarenka appear as both composers and solo pianists (Schwarenka in one of his own concertos), and you probably know that Rachmaninov was soloist in the American premiere of one of his own concertos.

It should also be remembered that Mahler did not conduct at every NYPO concert--Damrosch was his main alternate--so I didn't check those, and that several programs were on "tour" in Connecticut, upstate New York, and sometimes in the Midwest. The programs tended to be the same on any given tour, no matter which citied were being visited

[Leo K.]

I attended a concert with MTT conducting the San Francisco Symphony in the Third maybe thirty years ago.

Tbh, l don't remember all that much. Perhaps because MTT is better with late Mahler, or perhaps because I'm an old fart with a poor memory.

In any event, l hope the stars align and you experience a Third for the ages. 

Thank you kindly! I can't wait!

[Herman]

Last night I listened to the livestream of Mahler 7 (my fave) with Alan Gilbert conducting the NDR in the Elbphilharmonie.

Later I relistened (and watched) Haitink and the RCO in 1985 Xmas Matinee, a performance that much more renders the demonic AND the Mendelssohnian (Midsummernight's Dream!), the light and the dark.

[Roasted Swan]

Last night I listened to the livestream of Mahler 7 (my fave) with Alan Gilbert conducting the NDR in the Elbphilharmonie.

Later I relistened (and watched) Haitink and the RCO in 1985 Xmas Matinee, a performance that much more renders the demonic AND the Mendelssohnian (Midsummernight's Dream!), the light and the dark.

What a good summation!!

[bhodges]

On Friday, Nov. 11, at 9:00pm (EST), Minnesota Public Radio will broadcast (live) the Symphony No. 3, the final installment of Osmo Vänskä's Mahler cycle with the Minnesota Orchestra, with mezzo-soprano Jennifer Johnston, the women of the Minnesota Chorale, and the Minnesota Boychoir.

https://www.mpr.org/

-Bruce

[bhodges]

A more accurate link for tomorrow's Mahler 3 with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra:

https://www.yourclassical.org/story/2022/09/19/minnesota-orchestra-2022-23-season

-Bruce

[LKB]

A more accurate link for tomorrow's Mahler 3 with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra:

https://www.yourclassical.org/story/2022/09/19/minnesota-orchestra-2022-23-season

-Bruce

I haven't heard anything conducted by Vänskä, so perhaps l should start with that link. Thanks for posting it. 

[Leo K.]

A more accurate link for tomorrow's Mahler 3 with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra:

https://www.yourclassical.org/story/2022/09/19/minnesota-orchestra-2022-23-season

-Bruce

Thanks! I was sick so I wasn't able to go yesterday to see Vanska conduct my beloved Mahler 3 (on 11-10).

[bhodges]

Last Thursday's Mahler 7 from Carnegie Hall, with Kirill Petrenko and the Berlin Philharmonic:

https://www.wqxr.org/story/berliner-philharmoniker/

-Bruce