Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[not edward]

Listened to it tonight, and it is a good representative of schmerzfree Mahler.  But I think the Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle is better artistically and certainly far superior sonically.  Edward, have you heard that performance?

I've not heard any of the Zinman recordings; I've been expanding my Mahler collection very slowly of late as I have somewhere between 5 and 15 recordings of each symphony, so I tend to only pick up a new one when I find it very cheaply.

[eyeresist]

Symphonies are not stories about one's life. Especially good great symphonies. They are models of the universe revealing how it works and how individual mind works inside universal spirit and how it can work. The aim of Mahler music is usuallyto show the way to the Absolute, to show how in spiritual world is possible to understand that  all can be well even sorrow (life and sorrow and world and dream),  to "ziehen hinan".

I'd say this all comes from you, not Mahler.

[mszczuj]

I'd say this all comes from you, not Mahler.

I'd say part of this all was chosen by Mahler to be placed in his works and part of this chosen was written by Mahler himself.

[eyeresist]

^ Please rewrite this last for clarity.

[mszczuj]

^ Please rewrite this last for clarity.

I quoted Mahler's words. So not all comes from me. Mahler's words come from Mahler.

[eyeresist]

Which words were Mahler's?

[eyeresist]

I've just been reading an interview with Herbert Blomstedt, in which he said some interesting things about Mahler (and also Bruckner):

When I compare the two, what surprises me is how modern Bruckner was compared to Mahler. What Bruckner wrote in 1868 is much more daring than what Mahler wrote in 1890, harmonically speaking. And he did it with the same orchestra as Beethoven used; not more instruments. ... Mahler perhaps in 1908, 1909, 1910, 1911, by the 10th Symphony, would have approached something like this, maybe also in the 9th Symphony there were some harmonically daring progressions. But the Mahler of the 1890s was not going in that direction. He developed other parts of his musical language that really made up Mahler. Mahler did not have to be more modern; he had to be more Mahler.

Beethoven was not telling us about his being afraid, about becoming deaf or of his anguish. He speaks for man as a species. I feel the same with Bruckner; he speaks for man as a species. Whereas Mahler speaks absolutely for himself and he shows us that this is also part of you. We can have sympathy for him and he appeals to us 'Oh, yes, I have something similar in me'. And that's why we like him so much; 'He suffered just as I do'. But Bruckner's music is on another kind of level. It's very personal, but it is not so subjective. This is why I feel with Bruckner's music you get a sense of the truth; this is like it is. It is real. One of the most wonderful passages in Mahler's music is the one where he gives an idea of an ideal world, of ideal happiness, in heaven – in his 'Wunderhorn-Lieder', 'I long to be in heaven'. And you have a wonderful feeling that this is where you want to be. But with Bruckner's music, you are there! And it's real, you know! It's not only a vision that you forget three bars later. Mahler's says that it's something to be hopeful for, but it's not real, it doesn't exist, but you must not forget to dream about it and hope for it and work towards it, but really, it does not exist. Whereas Bruckner creates a situation where it does exist, and it's here! ... Bruckner's music tells us there is also a line, that there is a vision there, that there is a hope for eternity. For Mahler, eternity is only a dream, but for Bruckner it's real.

[Mahler] said to his students 'If something in my works does not work in terms of balance, change it', or 'If you feel that the oboe is too weak here, use the clarinet instead, and if it's still too weak, double it, triple it, or put the piccolo on top' and he did not only give his students free hand to do it, but he said that they must do it! This is completely foreign to our feeling today where everything Mahler wrote is sacrosanct – you don't change a note, you don't change one instrument. The job of the conductor is to change the sound balances so that everything can be maximally clearly heard and so on, but you don't change the colours; that's a crime!

I don't have nearly as many questions for Mahler as I'd have for Bruckner because Mahler was much more detailed when he wrote his scores. There is hardly one note that doesn't have a special marking – a dot, an accent, a wedge or a dynamic marking. Sometimes there are two, three or even four markings for one note. So you can pretty well read his thoughts when you read the score. Bruckner was not so detailed in some of his works, but perhaps more than many people – much more detailed than Beethoven or Mozart and so on. But for me, Bruckner is more enigmatic than Mahler. I feel that Mahler's message is pretty clear to me. This does not mean that I know it for all times. Tomorrow, I might have other ideas. It's like that with any great music; you can never come close enough to it.

The basic temperament of a musician is melancholic. He's happy when others are happy, he's sad when others are sad; he is very influenceable. He has to have a lot of empathy. Without this empathy you cannot be a musician, you cannot really be an interpreter of somebody else's thoughts. But the other side of the coin is that you're lonely. ... This feeling of being alone is very close to me, I know it very well. So I can sympathize with Mahler who was always alone, he was never really at home – only when he was in his own world.

[Mahler's 9th] After the first movement, and from the very outset, it's a farewell [sings] 'Leb wohl'. But he was accustomed to saying goodbye all his life; goodbye to his brothers and sisters who died; goodbye to his wife who went astray; goodbye to his child that died; goodbye to Vienna; goodbye to his wonderful opera house and wonderful singers; to the orchestra; goodbye, goodbye. And also the American episode was so short. ... It fits perfectly with his fate.

http://mahler.universaledition.com/herbert-blomstedt-on-gustav-mahler/

[mszczuj]

Songs of a Wayfarer ends with:

"I did not know how life went on,
and all was well again!
All! All, love and sorrow
and world and dream!"

[eyeresist]

Songs of Wayfarer ends with:

"I did not know how life went on,
and all was well again!
All! All, love and sorrow
and world and dream!"

Maybe Mahler should have orchestrated "Row, row, row your boat"


EDIT: BTW, it's well worth following the link in my previous post, as it collects a number of interviews with conductors to mark the Universal Mahler edition.

[kishnevi]

I've not heard any of the Zinman recordings; I've been expanding my Mahler collection very slowly of late as I have somewhere between 5 and 15 recordings of each symphony, so I tend to only pick up a new one when I find it very cheaply.

I seem to accumulate Mahler recordings at the drop of a hammer, so to speak--especially box set.  But for the Second and the Ninth I have--well, let's just I could play a different recording of the Second every day for a month and not need to repeat any, and the Ninth is not far behind.

When and if you do get around to Zinman, i would suggest going for his Ninth, Third and Fourth.  I think his Ninth Adagio is the greatest performance of that movement I've ever heard--it's rather like what ascending into Heaven must be like in sonic terms. The Third and Fourth impressed me greatly.   The others, except for the Tenth, which is a total misfire, are good but not outstanding. 

[not edward]

Thanks for the suggestions! I may well look into the Fourth specifically, as it's one I'm probably due to spend some time with soon.

[DavidRoss]

I think there's been a misunderstanding! I'm not a newcomer to Mahler; I'm a newcomer to Mahler's Fourth. And I have the Karajan/DG/Mathis recording now and was wondering, is that a good introduction to the symphony?

see http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=9068963  complete performance starts at about 10:05

[madaboutmahler]

I saw M3 live in concert yesterday, the LSO/Bychkov.

It was an absolutely beautiful concert, which moved me very much. The performance was outstanding, very expressive. Certainly one of the most thrilling first movements I have heard, plus the trombone solo was excellent. And one of the most emotional, powerful performances of the finale I have heard too. And all the inner movements were excellent too, the fourth movement with the soprano Christianne Stotijn was heavenly.

The third symphony is just so amazing! This was the first time I had seen it performed live, so it was an amazing experience. Now, I just have to see no.2, 7 and 8 live, and I will have seen them all live at least once! Of course I intend to see them many more times though, and hopefully conduct them in the future too...

[Brian]

I saw M3 live in concert yesterday, the LSO/Bychkov.

The third symphony is just so amazing! This was the first time I had seen it performed live, so it was an amazing experience....

How about the offstage trumpet??

I heard M3 live in June in Poland - Warsaw/Antoni Wit - and count it the best orchestral playing I've ever seen anywhere. I think back and figure my memory must be faulty and it can't possibly be that good, except that during the concert I distinctly remember thinking, multiple times, "Now, in the future you will look back on this and think 'your memory must be faulty, it couldn't have been that good,' but don't worry, it is." I just don't have words to describe it. Partly it was the majesty and incredible color of the music, partly the incredibly intimate acoustic, partly I've never just heard any orchestra like that before. When you're a few years along and have travel money, check the WPO/Wit schedules in case Mahler or something similarly grandiose comes up. Wizzair flights are only about 45 pounds each way and you can live (unhealthily) off the paczkis.

Mahler's Third is on my "500 miles" list. That is, I would go 500 miles to see it live. Oh wait... I lived in London and flew to Warsaw and that's 1,000 miles!

[madaboutmahler]

How about the offstage trumpet??

I heard M3 live in June in Poland - Warsaw/Antoni Wit - and count it the best orchestral playing I've ever seen anywhere. I think back and figure my memory must be faulty and it can't possibly be that good, except that during the concert I distinctly remember thinking, multiple times, "Now, in the future you will look back on this and think 'your memory must be faulty, it couldn't have been that good,' but don't worry, it is." I just don't have words to describe it. Partly it was the majesty and incredible color of the music, partly the incredibly intimate acoustic, partly I've never just heard any orchestra like that before. When you're a few years along and have travel money, check the WPO/Wit schedules in case Mahler or something similarly grandiose comes up. Wizzair flights are only about 45 pounds each way and you can live (unhealthily) off the paczkis.

Mahler's Third is on my "500 miles" list. That is, I would go 500 miles to see it live. Oh wait... I lived in London and flew to Warsaw and that's 1,000 miles!

The offstage flugelhorn solo was absolutely beautiful. The atmosphere in the hall, with just the flugelhorn sounding amongst those hushed tremelo violins... it was heavenly!

Wow... must have been an amazing concert! I think the Bychkov performance reached that kind of response from me too, it certainly was absolutely amazing.
haha I would certainly be interested in seeing Wit's Mahler, so when I have the money, yes, I'll keep an eye out for them.
Mahler 3 would be on my '500 miles' list too! I would have certainly gone to Berlin to see Rattle's recent performance for example. And there must be many other great performances being held of it around the world...

[kishnevi]

Bumping this post for benefit of Daniel Brian and anyone else who's interested.

The Cleveland Orchestra has been doing a "residency" in Miami for the last couple of years--that is, they come three or four times during the concert season to give full weekend's worth of concerts in downtown Miami. 
They've announced  next years concerts, which will begin with a weekend in November with the featured work being Mahler's Third   The chorus are local, the soloist's name I recognized when I read it in this morning's paper, but can not for the life of me remember right now.  Franz Welser-Most will conduct.  (How is he in Mahler?)
This means I will drag myself into downtown Miami for the first time in years. 

I'm assuming that they will also be giving the work in Cleveland either before or after the concerts in Miami, so Cleveland area folks might want to take notice.

[madaboutmahler]

Bumping this post for benefit of Daniel Brian and anyone else who's interested.

Thank you for that, Jeffrey. Certainly sounds like a great concert. If only I could persuade my parents to take me to America for the concert...

[kishnevi]

Thank you for that, Jeffrey. Certainly sounds like a great concert. If only I could persuade my parents to take me to America for the concert...

Just convince them that November is the best time to visit Disney World.    It's only about four hours to drive from Orlando to Miami.  (I know Brits seem to think that American distances are vast.   But that's not really a long way.  And you can take them to South Beach as their reward after the concert.)

[Brian]

Bumping this post for benefit of Daniel Brian and anyone else who's interested.

Oh man. Can I make it to Miami in November? I'll put it in the calendar and weigh the decision around July/Aug. ... right now I'm afraid the plane tickets would take up about 15% of my life savings. 

[jlaurson]

M3 for me, later this month. With Fischer, Ivan.

Old news to me, the work, and usually disappointing... but the first time my better half will hear it. Not just live, but probably ever. I envy her.