Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Leo K.]

It's a close match for the 10th, actually....

I also feel the 7th is a close match for the 10th, and wonder if that says something about the nature of the 10th? At least interpretively.

[eyeresist]

I also feel the 7th is a close match for the 10th, and wonder if that says something about the nature of the 10th? At least interpretively.

I've posted my theory elsewhere - I think 7 is Mahler's most innocent and whimsical symphony, about a child's dreams at night. 10 I think is inspired by the death of his daughter Maria Anna. The twin structures indicate the mirroring of these ideas, happy and hellish.

BTW, last time I listened to 9 and 10 in order, it struck me that the opening adagio of 10 may in part be parodying the themes of the closing adagio of 9. Has anyone else noticed this?

[ibanezmonster]

BTW, last time I listened to 9 and 10 in order, it struck me that the opening adagio of 10 may in part be parodying the themes of the closing adagio of 9. Has anyone else noticed this?

Maybe, but then again, another possibility is that it just sounds similar (I'd have to know specifically which parts you're talking about). Both adagios use a certain type of melodic formula which is quite specific, so it's also a possibility that similarities may not have been intentional.

[jlaurson]

The Mahler Blind Testing going on, courtesy discoboble (?) inspired me to salvage more of the 2009 Mahler Survey from WETA to ionarts.

Working my way backwards through the 25 'episodes', I've now arrived at Symphony 8, PART 1 and PART 2. (And will have to do some formatting of the previously salvaged ones, to get a coherent look, update information, and fix graphics where links are broken.)

[pbarach]

I've posted my theory elsewhere - I think 7 is Mahler's most innocent and whimsical symphony, about a child's dreams at night. 10 I think is inspired by the death of his daughter Maria Anna.

10 is inspired by Mahler finding out Alma was getting it on with Gropius. Handwritten inscriptions over the manuscript of the last movement make this clear.

[jlaurson]

10 is inspired by Mahler finding out Alma was getting it on with Gropius. Handwritten inscriptions over the manuscript of the last movement make this clear.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html

yep. the score is littered with such and similarly gloomy\pathetic remarks.

[mc ukrneal]

No cuts, just a very rapid tempo and skipping the first-movement repeat (if I remember rightly, the Melodiya recording is actually faster).

Kondrashin in the 6th I find interesting but ultimately too one-dimensional to be amongst my favourites--it really is a merciless performance. I really like his studio 7th, though. (I should get hold of the Amsterdam live performance, I guess, but my Mahler 7s are ballooning.)

It's worth it I think though. There are a couple fluffs (it is live), but the playing of the orchestra is generally quite good and better than the Leningrad PO. The timings are nearly identical though.

[eyeresist]

10 is inspired by Mahler finding out Alma was getting it on with Gropius. Handwritten inscriptions over the manuscript of the last movement make this clear.

No, he wrote most of the music before he found out about Alma/Walter.

[jlaurson]

No, he wrote most of the music before he found out about Alma/Walter.

Mahler had had his doubts throughout, but started (rightly) suspecting matters were taking an unprecedentedly 'involved' turn around June 1910, when A. curtailed her correspondence to G. (Partly because she was shagging W.G., partly because she had secretly left the Tobelbad Spa for Vienna). A.'s mother, too, was in on it... and helped facilitate meetings between A. & W.G.. (Nice! note to self: quality of mother-in-law matters)

G. was writing on his 10th at the time, starting around July 11th / 18th spontaneously -- when a fortnight before that, he had no plans yet to write another symphony.
The third and fourth movement are littered with the anguished outbursts... the finale is rather an attempt or the achievement of overcoming this.
On July 30th (??) G. received W.G.'s 'misadressed letter' -- and the young architect had the temerity to show up in Toblach. After August 7th he started writing again.
His date with Freud was August 25th, between the 28th and September 2nd he would still have had time to continue on the 10th... after that, he probably didn't touch it anymore.

So how is the 10th 'not that much' influenced by these events?

[eyeresist]

G. was writing on his 10th at the time, starting around July 11th / 18th spontaneously -- when a fortnight before that, he had no plans yet to write another symphony.
The third and fourth movement are littered with the anguished outbursts... the finale is rather an attempt or the achievement of overcoming this.
On July 30th (??) G. received W.G.'s 'misadressed letter' -- and the young architect had the temerity to show up in Toblach. After August 7th he started writing again.

Mahler began working on the symphony around 7 July (his birthday), three weeks before Walter's letter arrived on 29 July. Thus, the work was already conceived and planned - only an amateur improvises a symphony. The first two movements are not marked by any Alma-directed exhortations (not even the cataclysm of the first movement). Thus, the bad news may have informed the later part of the short score, but did not shape the work entire. Possibly Alma's betrayal would have had a larger effect on the work had Mahler lived to revise it.

[DavidRoss]

Mahler wrote huge works but he also had a kind of mania about clarity. Everything had to be audible. He wanted the listener to hear every instrument and relish every detail. ~Charles Mackerras

Mahler suffers greatly from being subjected to sentimental mediocrities, with heart-on-sleeve performances that stretch, pull and exaggerate the music. ~Lorin Maazel

Just two quotes of interest from Gramophone's "Mahler by the World's Greatest Conductors"

[pbarach]

Maazel of all people is complaining about exaggerated Mahler performances??

[Sergeant Rock]

Maazel of all people is complaining about exaggerated Mahler performances??

No, he's against sentimental performances. His Mahler is not sentimental. Sometimes mannered, frequently broad, idiosyncratic, rigid, in complete control, yes, but I can't think of an overly sentimental moment.

Sarge

[ibanezmonster]

Mahler began working on the symphony around 7 July (his birthday), three weeks before Walter's letter arrived on 29 July. Thus, the work was already conceived and planned - only an amateur improvises a symphony. The first two movements are not marked by any Alma-directed exhortations (not even the cataclysm of the first movement). Thus, the bad news may have informed the later part of the short score, but did not shape the work entire. Possibly Alma's betrayal would have had a larger effect on the work had Mahler lived to revise it.

It probably had more of an influence after he had been writing it for a while...

[jlaurson]

No, he's against sentimental performances. His Mahler is not sentimental. Sometimes mannered, frequently broad, idiosyncratic, rigid, in complete control, yes, but I can't think of an overly sentimental moment.

Sarge

along similar lines:

When there is no initial show of hands at the question & answer time, Küppers seems eager to wrap it up. He is preempted by three hands that hastily shoot up. The questions are for Thielemann and include: "What's your relationship with Mahler"? "Why do you ask that?" CT shoots back, moodily. "Uh, oh... professional curiosity?" stumbles the journalist half cowed, half defiant. "Well, I have a troubled relationship with Mahler's music. But then you knew that, which is why you asked, no?" Touché. But what follows changes the mood in the room completely. "Mahler's music lends itself most to those conductors" Thielemann reflects, "who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn't exactly accommodate my conducting style; I've not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I'm currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually..." Thielemann thus continues a solid three minutes on his fallibility as a conductor in Mahler, about trying to break habits and improving—a touching, beautifully honest moment.http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html

As part of these comments, Thielemann mentioned Haitink explicitly, as someone he admires in Mahler.

[Cato]

along similar lines:

As part of these comments, Thielemann mentioned Haitink explicitly, as someone he admires in Mahler.

Concerning the "holding back" and not adding anything, perhaps that explains Pierre Boulez and his later-in-life Mahler cycle?

Not that Boulez was a stranger to Mahler before that: over 40 years ago I purchased the complete Das Klagende Lied which he recorded with (I believe) the London Symphony and Chorus.  A great interpretation, if it is still available.

[Karl Henning]

Kremerata Baltica recorded the Adagio from the Tenth, arranged for strings by Mel Stottlemyre Hans Stadlmair.  I think, though, that it is too sunny a day to listen to it in the daylight hours.  This evening, perhaps . . . .

[Sergeant Rock]

Concerning the "holding back" and not adding anything, perhaps that explains Pierre Boulez and his later-in-life Mahler cycle?

Not that Boulez was a stranger to Mahler before that: over 40 years ago I purchased the complete Das Klagende Lied which he recorded with (I believe) the London Symphony and Chorus.  A great interpretation, if it is still available.

I  have that too. Double LP gatefold. And, yes, Boulez included Waldmärchen 



CDs can be found used. Here for example.


Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Ah, and with the late Evelyn Lear, no less! God rest her saule.

[jlaurson]

I  have that too. Double LP gatefold. And Boulez included Waldmärchen 

Did he splice that in later, though?