Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Leo K.]

Mahler wanted to convey everything in the world and by the end of the third movement I feel he has succeeded and time to finish already. Sheesh!

Mike

That's what I feel in the 6th!

[Leo K.]

The one I cannot crack is No 3, where I don't get the relationship between the movements, it hits me as random. I rarely listen to it all the way through.

Mike

The M3 was difficult for me too, eventually I read somewhere that this 'randomness' between movements was what made Mahler a modernist in his time, and that helped me except the M3 and the M5 (similar to the M3 in it's random quality).

[knight66]

Ah Leo, so much is in the ear of the listener. I have never had any trouble with the 5th which feels pretty much like a normally structured symphony to me. Some critics have problems with the structure of the 7th. But again, despite the then unconventional arrangement of the movements, I did not find it incoherent in the way I have difficulty with the 3rd.

Mike

[Pat B]

I just listened to Klemperer's 7th for the first time. I thought the inner movements were outstanding. As for the outer movements, well, I still have trouble with them in general (my others are Bernstein/Sony and Barenboim).

This piece may not ever click with me. The first movement reminds me of why I previously disliked Mahler.

[Marc]

I just listened to Klemperer's 7th for the first time. I thought the inner movements were outstanding. As for the outer movements, well, I still have trouble with them in general (my others are Bernstein/Sony and Barenboim).

This piece may not ever click with me. The first movement reminds me of why I previously disliked Mahler.

That 1st movement is vintage Mahler .... in its extremes.

[calyptorhynchus]

I started off listening to the middle and late symphonies, 5, 6, 7, 9, Das Lied and 10.

I thought they were absolutely marvelous, just my idea of what music should be and Das Lied and the 9th, I thought and still do, were amongst the greatest pieces of music ever.

I never 'got' the 8th, and never have. I think it's cos I don't understand the whole Faust thing. Goethe's Faust just seems very silly to me, not a masterpiece of world literature.

Then when I got around to the early symphonies (2-4) I found that they were full of good things, but quite weak compared to the later symphonies, there's nothing in them that isn't in the later symphonies. I think they're kind of optional.

As for 1, it's one of those pieces of music that is so over the top it's quite good. I listen to it quite often (and usually with the Blumine movement, which seems to give it more balance).

[Cato]

I never 'got' the 8th, and never have. I think it's cos I don't understand the whole Faust thing. Goethe's Faust just seems very silly to me, not a masterpiece of world literature.

I am unsure whether you saw my previous comments:

Concerning Mahler's Symphony #8:

One can detect a certain willfulness in the concept: yet musically the two-movement structure is similar to other two-movement sonatas or symphonies, e.g. Beethoven's last Piano Sonata and Prokofiev's Second Symphony.

It is possible that the texts mask the structure for some people: one could try ignoring the texts and simply treat the voices as additional instruments.  On the other hand, such a listening experience would lessen the richness of the initial concept, i.e. that an ideational link exists between the Veni Creator Spiritus of Hrabanus Maurus and the last part of Goethe's Faust, which the musical development binds together, if one listens carefully.

Certainly when dealing with issues as large as the Cosmos and Divinity as Love and Humanity's roles, one can understand why Mahler wanted a large orchestra.

To be sure, a case can be made for addressing such wonders in subtle ways, but Mahler obviously did not choose such a path.

The Faust story goes back centuries before Goethe composed his epic variation on it, where Faust is redeemed from his pact with Mephistopheles by das Ewig-Weibliche.

Trust me: Goethe's version of Faust is not "very silly!"  Try the Norton Critical Edition.  Given Goethe's accomplishments in other works (Werther, Die Wahlverwandtschaften, the dozens and dozens of poems, etc.) one should give him the benefit of the doubt in his Faust tale.  One can say that the prose-poem-drama experiment does not convince for whatever reason, but certainly a fellow genius like Mahler would never have used something "very silly" for a composition he believed to be highly spiritual and a universe in itself.

By using the Veni, Creator Spiritus Mahler connects the Holy Spirit's power to the wandering of Faust's soul toward Heaven, a wandering needing the "Eternal-Feminine" to speak for Faust's redemption from his assorted crimes. 

It has perhaps not been sufficiently appreciated that one interpretation of Mahler's thematic linkage is to view the Holy Spirit as a feminine creative principle.

[Ken B]

I started off listening to the middle and late symphonies, 5, 6, 7, 9, Das Lied and 10.

I thought they were absolutely marvelous, just my idea of what music should be and Das Lied and the 9th, I thought and still do, were amongst the greatest pieces of music ever.

I never 'got' the 8th, and never have. I think it's cos I don't understand the whole Faust thing. Goethe's Faust just seems very silly to me, not a masterpiece of world literature.

Then when I got around to the early symphonies (2-4) I found that they were full of good things, but quite weak compared to the later symphonies, there's nothing in them that isn't in the later symphonies. I think they're kind of optional.

As for 1, it's one of those pieces of music that is so over the top it's quite good. I listen to it quite often (and usually with the Blumine movement, which seems to give it more balance).

Ahh, but have you actually ever read Goethe's Faust itself? It really is a masterpiece. Don't judge it by Mahler's awful symphony. (actually it has spawned other bombastic pieces as well.)

[Cato]

The Faust story goes back centuries before Goethe composed his epic variation on it, where Faust is redeemed from his pact with Mephistopheles by das Ewig-Weibliche.

Trust me: Goethe's version of Faust is not "very silly!"  Try the Norton Critical Edition.  Given Goethe's accomplishments in other works (Werther, Die Wahlverwandtschaften, the dozens and dozens of poems, etc.) one should give him the benefit of the doubt in his Faust tale.  One can say that the prose-poem-drama experiment does not convince for whatever reason, but certainly a fellow genius like Mahler would never have used something "very silly" for a composition he believed to be highly spiritual and a universe in itself.

By using the Veni, Creator Spiritus Mahler connects the Holy Spirit's power to the wandering of Faust's soul toward Heaven, a wandering needing the "Eternal-Feminine" to speak for Faust's redemption from his assorted crimes. 

It has perhaps not been sufficiently appreciated that one interpretation of Mahler's thematic linkage is to view the Holy Spirit as a feminine creative principle.

I first heard the Eighth Symphony via Leonard Bernstein's 1960's recording with the London Symphony, a thrilling, energetic performance.  Decades later I was fortunate to be present for a live performance by the Cleveland Orchestra with Robert Shaw conducting. 

The second movement as the equivalent of Adagio-Scherzo-Finale never bothered me, and to be sure, the Veni, Creator Spiritus + Faust - Final Act needed some thought, and I understand why some people do not accept the pairing.

Still, new things come to me with every hearing: I now have the DGG/Boulez and can recommend it highly.

[jlaurson]

Ahh, but have you actually ever read Goethe's Faust itself? It really is a masterpiece. Don't judge it by Mahler's awful symphony. (actually it has spawned other bombastic pieces as well.)

Let's not confuse Faust I (the "masterpiece" you refer to) & Faust II here, though. Bit of a difference. Mahler knew the latter by heart; different times. Nowadays no one would want to.

[Cato]

Does anyone have this box set?  Or individual CD's from it?  What think ye? 

Apparently some of the recordings go back 40 years, but according to reviews have been transferred quite well:

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Mainly 5-star reviews on Amazon!

[Jay F]

Does anyone have this box set?  Or individual CD's from it?  What think ye? 

Apparently some of the recordings go back 40 years, but according to reviews have been transferred quite well:

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Mainly 5-star reviews on Amazon!

I like his 6th so much, it's one of the only versions I listen to all the way through instead of giving up and playing Bernstein. I have tinnitus, so I tend not to comment on sound quality, but it sounds fine to me. I have Levine's M7 -- the original CD, not the one in this box set -- and like it, too. But I like lots of M7s (just the opposite of the way I react to M6s).

[kishnevi]

Does anyone have this box set?  Or individual CD's from it?  What think ye? 

Apparently some of the recordings go back 40 years, but according to reviews have been transferred quite well:

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Mainly 5-star reviews on Amazon!

Levine's Fifth was one of my first CD purchases back when, and after all the other Mahler I've heard in the last few years, remains a favorite.   I do have the set now, and have no complaints.  True, it does not contain the Second and Eighth,  but given the one recording I have of Levine doing the Second (at Salzburg) I'm not sure that's a flaw.....

What I think is Levine's true marvel of a Mahler, however, is not part of this  set.  It's his recording of the Ninth with the Munich Philharmonic,  issued on Oehms.

And there should be no problem with the sound.  We are not talking about transfers from 78s recorded in 1938 or something.

[Sergeant Rock]

Levine's Chicago Third is one of my favorites. The Bimm-bamm fifth movement has a darkness to it that, although not altogether unique, is a rare interpretive choice. I think he sustains a protracted finale beautifully.

Sarge

[DavidW]

Does anyone have this box set? 

It is one of my favorites.  A former gmger turned me onto the set.  I think it is awesome!  The sq is not bad but lacks the transparency and detail of modern sound.

[Cato]

Levine's Chicago Third is one of my favorites. The Bimm-bamm fifth movement has a darkness to it that, although not altogether unique, is a rare interpretive choice. I think he sustains a protracted finale beautifully.

Sarge

Many thanks to everyone for the nice responses!

The Third Symphony I suppose is an acquired taste.  I recall reading something decades ago about how the outer movements needed a trim, but obviously Mahler did not think so!

I used to listen to it much more often 50 years ago, when I had no adult responsibilities...like a job!   

[Florestan]

The Third Symphony I suppose is an acquired taste. 

It is the first Mahler I've ever heard (Vaclav Neumann / Czech PO) and it was love at first sight. I even thought it to be far above, and way beyond, my beloved Beethoven. Not so anymore, but I still love it. 

[Sergeant Rock]

The Third Symphony I suppose is an acquired taste.

It was for me. It took me more than a decade to move happily beyond the first movement (which I adored). I don't know why the other movements appealed so little to me then. Ignorant youth 

Sarge

[Jay F]

It was for me. It took me more than a decade to move happily beyond the first movement (which I adored). I don't know why the other movements appealed so little to me then. Ignorant youth 

Sarge

I loved Mahler's Third from the moment I first heard it (Bernstein CBS, original US CD). It was hard to believe such wonderful, beautiful music had existed all those years and I had never heard it. I'm so happy popular music crapped out in the '80s for me. That was how I came to listen to classical.

[Sergeant Rock]

I loved Mahler's Third from the moment I first heard it (Bernstein CBS, original US CD). It was hard to believe such wonderful, beautiful music had existed all those years and I had never heard it. I'm so happy popular music crapped out in the '80s for me. That was how I came to listen to classical.

It may have been that beauty that prevented me from appreciating it (beyond the first movement)--that and it's relative lack of "drama." I had a similiar long-term struggle with the Fourth (possibly Mahler's most beautiful creation). Mahler's other symphonies came easily to me, especially the Second, Fifth and Sixth.

Sarge