Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Jay F]

In 7 Klemperer and Bernstein are my Top 2 but you've apparently ruled them out. So, look at Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin, Boulez/Cleveland and Abbado/Chicago (his later Berlin recording is much the same as an interpretation but the Berlin Phil is no Mahler orchestra).

Sarge

My two favorites are by Bernstein, but I also like Abbado/Chicago. I wonder, however, whether someone who doesn't like my two favorites, will like my third favorite. I also like Tilson-Thomas and Barenboim. I haven't heard Klemperer.

[Sergeant Rock]

I haven't heard Klemperer.

I don't actually recommend Klemp's M7 unless extreme interpretations interest you. His tempos are very slow. In the first movement there is essentially no difference between the Langsam introduction and the following Allegro risoluto. The orchestral execution is ragged at times. The finale is more than 24 minutes long! But his Nachtmusik I is fascinating. He makes the music sound like something from the Second Viennese dudes; could almost be Webern.

Sarge

[jlaurson]

In 7 Klemperer and Bernstein are my Top 2 but you've apparently ruled them out. So, look at Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin, Boulez/Cleveland and Abbado/Chicago (his later Berlin recording is much the same as an interpretation but the Berlin Phil is no Mahler orchestra).

Sarge

I disagree re: Abbado M7. Don't find the recordings all that similar and in fact the Berlin a lot better. And I think if the CSO is a Mahler orchestra, the BPh is THE Mahler orchestra. (I have data to prove it, btw... they ARE a Mahler Orchestra... the myth of them re-discovering Mahler via Barbirolli and Bernstein isn't borne out by the sheer numbers.

[Brahmsian]

Hmm, sounds like a good idea for a new thread (if there isn't one already existing).  We often talk about which conductors seem to 'get' or are well known for their interpretations of certain composers' music, certain pieces.

Which orchestras are known for their outstanding interpretations of certain composers' music/works?  (ie. Staatskapelle Dresden - Richard Strauss), just as an example.

[Sergeant Rock]

I disagree re: Abbado M7. Don't find the recordings all that similar and in fact the Berlin a lot better.

Timings don't tell us everything, of course, or maybe even much...but just look at the first, third and fifth movements 

Abbado Chicago  21:27  16:37  8:55  14:01  17:45

Abbado Berlin     21:35  15:54  8:53  12:58  17:45


I appreciate the fact that he takes more time over Nachtmusik II in Chicago.

I just spot checked the two recordings to refresh my memory. I still maintain Abbado didn't change his interpretation much overall. But I do prefer Chicago. It has more rhythmic swagger, the brass and winds sound more Mahlerian (not something I can explain but, like porn, I know it when I hear it  ) And the recording is much better. It has more bite, more detail. The opening of the Berlin Rondo, for example, sounds conjested. snyprrr is concerned about getting good sound. DG was more successful in Chicago than Berlin; more successful in the studio than live.

I'm afraid this is one of the rare instances when we disagree about a Mahler recording.

Sarge

[Ken B]

Listening to the stereo Klemp 7, first movement, for the first time.
I like this tremendously. This times out at almost 28 minutes! I think I have found my new favorite!
Finished 1. This is the very first time the closing thumps have not sounded awkward and galumphing. This is definitely the best version of that movement I have heard.

Now movement 2, also pleasingly slooooooow.

[snyprrr]

I don't actually recommend Klemp's M7 unless extreme interpretations interest you. His tempos are very slow. In the first movement there is essentially no difference between the Langsam introduction and the following Allegro risoluto. The orchestral execution is ragged at times. The finale is more than 24 minutes long! But his Nachtmusik I is fascinating. He makes the music sound like something from the Second Viennese dudes; could almost be Webern.

Sarge

See? But after listening to that Klemp/Nacht1 and liking it- how am I NOT going to be disappointed by anything less? I mean, I now think this is the way the music is supposed to sound- and I would be demanding 'extremity' here. Ugh, see what the problem is? As soon as someone gets "good sound" they get all coy and scared to make rude sounds. CALL THE WAAAAH-MBULANCE!!!

Plus that review for Abbado 'live' said the Nachts were soooooo mysterious. HOW am I supposed to recover from that??? (did I mention it was $1?)


aye aye aye


But- what Mahler has exotic instruments? I know there's the cowbell in 7. Waaah, I'm starting to confuse myself.... oxygfen.... need.... oxygen....



I have a mental block right now. I ASSUMED that there would be just as many NEW DDD AWESOME recordings of Mahler like there are for DSCH (competing RattlevsJansons and such), but it seems as though it's STILL the "same old classics" here. ok, I'm going to hold my breath and see if anything happens.... hold on.



Nope, that didn't work.


How am I going to forget the Klempster? sarge, I will look into those other two...

[Sergeant Rock]

Listening to the stereo Klemp 7, first movement, for the first time.
I like this tremendously. This times out at almost 28 minutes! I think I have found my new favorite!

If you're serious (and why wouldn't you be  ) that makes, worldwide...let me count again now, make sure I have it right...yes, that makes two of us who claim Klemp as their favorite! 

The real challenge, though, is the fifth movement Rondo. If you can make it through that...

Sarge

[Ken B]

If you're serious (and why wouldn't you be  ) that makes, worldwide...let me count again now, make sure I have it right...yes, that makes two of us who claim Klemp as their favorite! 

The real challenge, though, is the fifth movement Rondo. If you can make it through that...

Sarge

I will get to the rondo, ... eventually.
I am perfectly serious. I am generally slow as a mental conductor, and like late Klemp a lot partly because he is slow. Now I am tempted to get the Klemp Mahler box. Like I need more boxes, discs, or Mahler. But this is really quite revelatory so far. The only Klemp Mahler I know is das Lied.

We need a thread for cheers for conductors.

Who do we want? KLEMPERER!
When do we want him? IN HIS OWN SWEET TIME!

[Sergeant Rock]

Plus that review for Abbado 'live' said the Nachts were soooooo mysterious. HOW am I supposed to recover from that??? (did I mention it was $1?)

Jens thinks it pretty special too ("Those middle movements have never sounded better; the nightscape of movements two and four has never been evoked more realistically, tenderly, movingly. It is better even than Bernstein (either on Sony or live on DG, both with the New York Philharmonic) in that regard. There is much more mist over that midnight lake and the tempi are steadier.".--from his WETA Mahler survey)  Like I said, I still prefer Chicago but if you can get Berlin for buck? Go for it.

But- what Mahler has exotic instruments? I know there's the cowbell in 7. Waaah, I'm starting to confuse myself.... oxygfen.... need.... oxygen....

The Seventh has mandolin and guitar.

How am I going to forget the Klempster? sarge,

You aren't. It's in your bones now. You're doomed 

Sarge

[Ken B]

Jens thinks it pretty special too ("Those middle movements have never sounded better; the nightscape of movements two and four has never been evoked more realistically, tenderly, movingly. It is better even than Bernstein (either on Sony or live on DG, both with the New York Philharmonic) in that regard. There is much more mist over that midnight lake and the tempi are steadier.".--from his WETA Mahler survey)  Like I said, I still prefer Chicago but if you can get Berlin for buck? Go for it.

The Seventh has mandolin and guitar.

You aren't. It's in your bones now. You're doomed 

Sarge

The bells in 7 sound like guitar.

[Sergeant Rock]

Who do we want? KLEMPERER!
When do we want him? IN HIS OWN SWEET TIME!

I'll be back later with some comments on Klemp's Mahler tempos (he's often on the swift side actually). But I must feed Mrs. Rock now.

Sarge

[kishnevi]

FWIW I am with Jens on Abbado v Abbado.  Second favorite after Abbado Berlin is MTT, followed by (truly a dark horse!) Gergiev.

[Brahmsian]

See? But after listening to that Klemp/Nacht1 and liking it

It is all irrelevant, because although Symphony No. 7 Nachtmusik I is truly great, Nachtmusik II eats Nacht I for breakfast! 

[Sergeant Rock]

FWIW I am with Jens on Abbado v Abbado.  Second favorite after Abbado Berlin is MTT, followed by (truly a dark horse!) Gergiev.

We have absolutely nothing in common, Mahler-wise 

Sarge

[Ken B]

We have absolutely nothing in common, Mahler-wise 

Sarge

It's terrifying how wrong one man can be isn't it? Now I am worried about letting Jeffrey out in traffic unsupervised. 

[Pat B]

If you're serious (and why wouldn't you be  ) that makes, worldwide...let me count again now, make sure I have it right...yes, that makes two of us who claim Klemp as their favorite! 

The real challenge, though, is the fifth movement Rondo. If you can make it through that...

I don't have a favorite right now (the others I own are Barenboim and Bernstein/Sony) but I do enjoy Klemperer. I would generally recommend it to someone who already has other recordings, or to anybody with a penchant for slowness (which I don't, but I also don't have an aversion to it).

Haven't heard Abbado yet, but I have the BPO one on order and the CSO one on hold at the library.

Ken, if you don't have Klemperer's 2, then his set is well worth getting.

[snyprrr]

Just some final 7th research yielded the Masur with the Gewandhaus (Berlin)- this would interest me, but surely the sound isn't transcendent?

So, and there ARE budgets here to consider-

1) Abbado/Berlin

2) MTT (which one?)

3) Masur

4) I think Levine is coming to the library



Unless Masur trumps Abbado, it looks like he'll be My First 7th.

[Jay F]

Timings don't tell us everything, of course, or maybe even much...but just look at the first, third and fifth movements 

Abbado Chicago  21:27  16:37  8:55  14:01  17:45

Abbado Berlin     21:35  15:54  8:53  12:58  17:45


I appreciate the fact that he takes more time over Nachtmusik II in Chicago.

I just spot checked the two recordings to refresh my memory. I still maintain Abbado didn't change his interpretation much overall. But I do prefer Chicago. It has more rhythmic swagger, the brass and winds sound more Mahlerian (not something I can explain but, like porn, I know it when I hear it  ) And the recording is much better. It has more bite, more detail. The opening of the Berlin Rondo, for example, sounds conjested. snyprrr is concerned about getting good sound. DG was more successful in Chicago than Berlin; more successful in the studio than live.

I'm afraid this is one of the rare instances when we disagree about a Mahler recording.

Sarge

Agreed, Sarge. I play Abbado's Chicago M7 regularly, after all these years. I listened to it a number of times this week. The Berlin version, I let a friend "borrow" that one a couple of years ago.

[Jay F]

2) MTT (which one?)

I only have the SACD from the San Francisco Symphony. It's one of my favorites.