Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[amw]

I did some spot comparisons of M6 between Bernstein, Boulez and Barbirolli. Have to say Bernstein is the clear winner so far, though the sound's dated and I don't like his brass.

I'll come back to this piece in a while, time to move on now... it's still not my thing. Have to say I love the ending and its double subversion though. "Okay yeah we're going to aim for a bittersweet happy ending in the ma- oh, nope, there's that 'chaos chord' again. Alright well at least we can end in a dignified, solemn manner with this trombone chora-" *DUM. DUM. DADADUM DUM DUM.* Always makes me smile.

[Jo498]

I only know Bernstein's Vienna/DG recording, just realized that most people were probably talking about the NYC/CBS (Sony)...?

[kishnevi]

I have never even heard of Farberman!
Meanwhile, any advance word on this?

Each symphony gets two CDs.  Live recordings from 2011.
SARGE ALERT!!!

Apparently Maazel went for the leisurely tempos throughout.
The Eighth has a total timing of 97'57!!!  About a minute or two shorter than many recordings of the Third .  The Seventh clocks in at 87'40 and the Ninth at 95'52,  including a 35 minute first movement.

Detailed track listing here
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_SIGCD362&utm_medium=DM&utm_source=DM201507&dm_i=10ZR,3GJPI,51XK73,CDRQ6,1

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

No, it is a great composition, very dramatic with some fine orchestral writing. I just can't grasp it as a "symphony" in any sense of the word. Had it been called anything else but a symphony it probably wouldn't get half the negativity it sometimes gets.

[Karl Henning]

Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

I shouldn't call it bad composition.  Part II is marvelous, IMO.  My own quarrel with Part I is not compositional, but more a quarrel with taking that musical tone to set the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus;  really just a difference in musical opinion.

[Sergeant Rock]

Meanwhile, any advance word on this?

Each symphony gets two CDs.  Live recordings from 2011.
SARGE ALERT!!!

I have the first volume (1, 2, 3...the Resurrection is spectacular). Haven't picked up the second vol. (4, 5, 6) because his Vienna 4 (with Battle) is my favorite M4 and I really doubt that can be improved upon. I'm considering this last volume but haven't decided to commit. Will probably wait for reviews.

Sarge

[Wanderer]

Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

It's a superb composition, grand, poignant and majestic. It only gets negativity from a vocal minority of the Talibanate of Orchestral Worshipers, who somehow get very upset at the idea that a composer can name his work differently from what they expect him to.

[Sergeant Rock]

Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

Mahler thought it was his greatest work. The master has spoken. End of argument    When I heard it live (Boulez with the Staatskapelle Berlin) the 90 minutes passed so quickly I was actually shocked when the final chorus began. A thrilling first movement and an utterly mesmerizing second.

Sarge

[ritter]

It's a superb composition, grand, poignant and majestic. It only gets negativity from a vocal minority of the Talibanate of Orchestral Worshipers, who somehow get very upset at the idea that a composer can name his work differently from what they expect him to.

Well, some of us are not members of that alleged Talibanate you mention, love the work of Gustav Mahler, and still have reservations about the 8th:

My main objection to Mahler's Eighth (well, apart from the choristers singing their lungs out at the beginning..."Veni! Veni! VEEEENI!"  ) is best described by this illustration:



It's as if the shorter, bombastic Part I could be balanced by the longer and quieter Part II...this is IMHO not the case, alas, and I think the piece has serious structural problems (well, and there's  that thing of the choristers singing their lungs out  )...

When I heard it live (Boulez with the Staatskapelle Berlin) the 90 minutes passed so quickly I was actually shocked when the final chorus began. A thrilling first movement and an utterly mesmerizing second.

I do admit that heard live, the Eighth can make a great impression...and yes, the final measures (from Mater Gloriosa's "Komm! Hebe dich zu höhern Sphären!" through the end) can only be described as sublime 

Cheers,

[Karl Henning]

I shouldn't call it bad composition.

I blush to consider that this sounds like pussyfooting.  Not bad in the least! 

[kishnevi]

Chorus members singing their lungs out on that Veni is actually nothing compared to what Beethoven does in his Ninth, or even worse in the Missa Solemnis (which I have sung in)....take a look at the Credo in the MiSol., especially the et resurrexit.....et ascendit, and see how he abuses the human vocal system there (top or nearly top of the vocal range, held for a full staff at full volume!).  My throat remembers it to thus day,  nearly forty years later.

[Wanderer]

It's as if the shorter, bombastic Part I could be balanced by the longer and quieter Part II...this is IMHO not the case, alas, and I think the piece has serious structural problems (well, and there's  that thing of the choristers singing their lungs out  )...

This is a classic example of how a work can fall victim to false expectations. There's no intrinsic reason why one part should "balance" the other. It could just as well be that one part completes, negates, juxtaposes, or acts as the preamble to the other. Ultimately, one should approach a musical composition such as this on its own terms and the composer's intentions and understanding becomes much easier. The Eighth may be described as an operatic scene opened by an ouverture-cantata to give a sense of its structure and still be perceived as a great choral symphony. Mahler knew very well what he was doing and I applaud him for it. 

[Ken B]

Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

I can't really say. I hate it so much I can never really engage with it, and it's been 15 years since I even tried. I know perfectly sensible people of taste who like it. It was one friend's favourite.

[Cato]

Mahler thought it was his greatest work. The master has spoken. End of argument    When I heard it live (Boulez with the Staatskapelle Berlin) the 90 minutes passed so quickly I was actually shocked when the final chorus began. A thrilling first movement and an utterly mesmerizing second.

Sarge

Amen!  I heard it live in Cleveland, probably 20 years ago now, with Robert Shaw conducting the Cleveland Orchestra.

I have never had reservations about the work: complaints about it not being a "symphony" I really do not understand, since the musical and psychological links are present.  One of the theological and philosophical links between the two (seemingly disparate) texts is Mahler's musical assertion that the Creator Spiritus is Das Ewig-Weibliche.

Certainly one is free to reject that idea!   0:)

[Wanderer]

I have never had reservations about the work: complaints about it not being a "symphony" I really do not understand, since the musical and psychological links are present.  One of the theological and philosophical links between the two (seemingly disparate) texts is Mahler's musical assertion that the Creator Spiritus is Das Ewig-Weibliche.

Unreservedly seconded.

[ritter]

This is a classic example of how a work can fall victim to false expectations. There's no intrinsic reason why one part should "balance" the other. It could just as well be that one part completes, negates, juxtaposes, or acts as the preamble to the other. Ultimately, one should approach a musical composition such as this on its own terms and the composer's intentions and understanding becomes much easier. The Eighth may be described as an operatic scene opened by an ouverture-cantata to give a sense of its structure and still be perceived as a great choral symphony. Mahler knew very well what he was doing and I applaud him for it. 

I must say I have never had any "false expectations" about the piece, and I've approached it "in itself", not in comparison to other Mahler symphonies (or those of any other composer, for that matter). Where you see a work in which one part "completes, negates, juxtaposes..." the other, I see a work that fails exactly in that endeavour  ... despite the sublime ending  .

As far as intrinsic reasons for one part "balancing" the other, surely a sense of cohesion, of form, of structure is a virtue in musical composition (be it a short song, be it a mammoth choral-orchestral score), even when the composer thrives to overcome established or inherited forms. There's even a "secret of form in Richard Wagner"  . The form of the Eighth has elluded me for the 40 years I've been acquainted with the work 

And really, if Mahler had wanted to write an "operatic scene", he could just have gone ahead and composed an opera, don't you think? (God knows he was intimately familiar with the ins and outs of the operatic genre). Following that approach, we'd be led to conclude that the Eighth is a failure as a symphony and as an opera. But don't get me wrong: I don't view the work in that light, as I cannot see anything remotely operatic in the Eighth.

Chorus members singing their lungs out on that Veni is actually nothing compared to what Beethoven does in his Ninth, or even worse in the Missa Solemnis (which I have sung in)....

Ah, the Missa Solemnis...another work whose virtues ellude me  . But (and don't get me wrong on this Jeffrey  ), as a listener I'm not really bothered if Mahler or Beethoven abuse the capabilities of the perfomers, what bothers me is that they abuse the sensibilities of the audiences (in these specific works)...

Cheers,

[TheGSMoeller]

I really like the 8th. More so than his 1st, 5th and 6th (runs away).


(Quickly returns) I do have a question concerning the 9th, what is the slowest 3rd mvt - Rondo on record?

[Jo498]

This is probably not answerable by just looking at timings because the middle section (with a variant of a theme from the finale) is much slower than the first section with the Rondo theme. And there are many I have not heard. But as far as I recall the earlier (1980s?) Gielen recording (originally on intercord) has one of the fastest last movements (21 min or so) and a rather slow Rondo Burleske.

[Sergeant Rock]

I really like the 8th. More so than his[....]5th and 6th (runs away).

I haven't been tempted to load my bazooka in many a moon, but I just may now! 

Sarge