Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Spotted Horses]

I got detoured in my plan to listen to the Brahms Piano Trios, my Philips DUO release of the Beaux Arts Trio recording includes the Horn Trio, Op 40, performed by Seboc, Grumiaux and Orval. I must say, this is one piece by Brahms that I am completely unable to appreciate. In this context, in an ensemble with solo violin and piano, the horn sounds like a sick cow trying to sing along with the music. I put it on thinking I would have a eureka moment and 'get' it, but I can find no pleasure in it.



It occurred to me that the horn part could be taken by another instrument, perhaps a cello, and Wikipedia tells me that Brahms did indeed specify that the horn part could be taken by Cello. Alas, I have not come across any recordings with cello. This strikes me as odd, because the clarinet chamber music is not infrequently performed by clarinet, despite the clarinet chamber music being miraculously successful on the clarinet.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I got detoured in my plan to listen to the Brahms Piano Trios, my Philips DUO release of the Beaux Arts Trio recording includes the Horn Trio, Op 40, performed by Seboc, Grumiaux and Orval. I must say, this is one piece by Brahms that I am completely unable to appreciate. In this context, in an ensemble with solo violin and piano, the horn sounds like a sick cow trying to sing along with the music. I put it on thinking I would have a eureka moment and 'get' it, but I can find no pleasure in it.

I happen to love the Horn Trio. The unusual sonority is part of the attraction. I don't think substituting a cello would improve it, because Brahms was going for a particular sound. I think the finale is supposed to evoke hunting horns, and the overall mood of Waldeinsamkeit ("that feeling of being alone in the forest") is enhanced by the horn sound.

Maybe try a different recording? I've got Perlman/ Ashkenazy/ Tuckwell.

[DavidW]

Spotted Horse, try viola instead:

[Maestro267]

Yes, and the unusual key of the slow movement makes it unique as well. Think of the revolutionary valve horn solo in the slow mvt of Beethoven 9 in the same key.

[Brian]

Maybe try a different recording? I've got Perlman/ Ashkenazy/ Tuckwell.

That is my reference too, although if he is permanently allergic to the horn sound, Rysanov's viola be a good solution.

[DavidW]

That is my reference too, although if he is permanently allergic to the horn sound, Rysanov's viola be a good solution.

Yeah it is actually a terrific performance!  Better to hear it on viola than not at all, viola jokes withstanding.

[Jo498]

Because of the history of the horn trio, the special instrumentation seems even more significant than in the case of the clarinet works. There are several recordings with natural horn (one with Faust on violin and an older one, also on harmonia mundi) and of course two "classics" with Serkin/Busch/Brain and Serkin/Tree/Bloom and many others. But I admittedly also don't like the piece as much as I should. It's unique and strange but not really a favorite.

[staxomega]

I'm overdue to hear some new Requiems if anyone has suggestions. My favorites are Herreweghe, Klemperer, Giulini, and I think Karajan (Janowitz/Waechter) though it's been a long time since I've heard that.

[Spotted Horses]

Because of the history of the horn trio, the special instrumentation seems even more significant than in the case of the clarinet works. There are several recordings with natural horn (one with Faust on violin and an older one, also on harmonia mundi) and of course two "classics" with Serkin/Busch/Brain and Serkin/Tree/Bloom and many others. But I admittedly also don't like the piece as much as I should. It's unique and strange but not really a favorite.

Based on my extensive research on the piece (cough, looking at the Wikipedia page) I did notice that Brahms had written it specifically for a natural horn and perhaps the sonority of a modern valved horn doesn't suite the music. I'll try the Faust et. al. recording. I can't get past the fact that the horn doesn't seem to blend with the other instruments and perhaps this will do the trick.

I'll probably try that next if the natural horn recording doesn't lift the veil for me.
Spotted Horse, try viola instead:

[Spotted Horses]

I'm overdue to hear some new Requiems if anyone has suggestions. My favorites are Herreweghe, Klemperer, Giulini, and I think Karajan (Janowitz/Waechter) though it's been a long time since I've heard that.

I haven't listened to a long time, but Karajan's 60's recording and his final recording with the WPO (after his falling out with the BPO) are extraordinary in different ways. In the final recording he seems to have recaptured a more direct mode of expression more reminiscent of his more youthful recordings.

[Madiel]

I got detoured in my plan to listen to the Brahms Piano Trios, my Philips DUO release of the Beaux Arts Trio recording includes the Horn Trio, Op 40, performed by Seboc, Grumiaux and Orval. I must say, this is one piece by Brahms that I am completely unable to appreciate. In this context, in an ensemble with solo violin and piano, the horn sounds like a sick cow trying to sing along with the music. I put it on thinking I would have a eureka moment and 'get' it, but I can find no pleasure in it.



It occurred to me that the horn part could be taken by another instrument, perhaps a cello, and Wikipedia tells me that Brahms did indeed specify that the horn part could be taken by Cello. Alas, I have not come across any recordings with cello. This strikes me as odd, because the clarinet chamber music is not infrequently performed by clarinet, despite the clarinet chamber music being miraculously successful on the clarinet.

I've got the exact same recording and don't remember having any aversion to it. Though of all the things on there, it's the Clarinet Trio that I truly adore.

[Mandryka]

I'm overdue to hear some new Requiems if anyone has suggestions. My favorites are Herreweghe, Klemperer, Giulini, and I think Karajan (Janowitz/Waechter) though it's been a long time since I've heard that.

Abbado with Terfel; this one because of the Rihm interludes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV_IPkgY-qg&ab_channel=ChristophSch%C3%A4fer

[Jo498]

I used to have the horn trio in that Philips recording and also remember it as a good one although as I said, I have not compared much and am not the greatest fan of the piece. I also doubt that another recording will make a huge difference although natural horn is certainly worth trying, the blending is even worse in some respects, I'd say.

[Jo498]

I'm overdue to hear some new Requiems if anyone has suggestions. My favorites are Herreweghe, Klemperer, Giulini, and I think Karajan (Janowitz/Waechter) though it's been a long time since I've heard that.

My favorite is still Klemperer. If you want to try something more distinctively HIP or stressing the "old music" connections, Norrington seemed to me more like that than Herreweghe (after all Norrington's first ensemble was called Schuetz choir, I think).
Kempe (historical but very good mono sound) is also deservedly famous with one of the best sopranos (Grümmer) as this part is often a liability (I cannot stand Schwarzkopf in Klemperer's). For very good choral singing (good baritone, not great soprano) Kegel/Leipzig has long been a somewhat dark horse recommendation.

[Que]

For the horn trio,  a natural horn is mandatory IMO.... 

Besides Melnikov/Faust/Van der Zwart there is a nice recording by Lubin/Chase/Greer, also on Harmonia Mundi and coupled with horn sonatas by Van Beethoven and Von Kruft.

[Spotted Horses]

I did get the Faust, Melikov, van der Zwert recording, and the natural horn makes all the difference. The round, undifferentiated sonority of the modern horn played softly to maintain balance with the other instruments is replaces by the nasal honking of the natural horn, and the music works! 

[Madiel]

Definitely going to try listening to that performance.

[DavidW]

Definitely going to try listening to that performance.

Same.

[Spotted Horses]

My initial enthusiastic comment was based on listening to the first movement. I have now listened to the entire piece, and find the performance with natural horn by Faust et. al. to be uniformly superb. It is fascinating how the timbre of the horn becomes more mello or more strained depending on the note, apparently because the hand must be inserted into the bell of the horn to play notes that don't fall on the natural overtone series of the horn. I think it is safe to assume the Brahms was aware of how the timbre would vary for different notes and took this into account.

[Madiel]

I've listened to part of it, not all of it yet.

I'm not a period performance obsessive, but the one thing that really leads me to period instruments is when it makes a difference to instrumental blend and balance in ensembles. There are definitely pieces that make more sense heard on the "right" instruments, and this might well be one of them. Brahms wrote for a natural horn when it was already getting old-fashioned, so there's a really conscious choice.

I don't think Faust and Melnikov are especially known for period instruments? Which also suggests they thought it was important here.