Quiz: Mystery scores

[lukeottevanger]

The non-Western musics he included didn't work that well in the sequel; I understand there's a recent third addition though, which would be nice to get into.

I thought that was the worst of the bunch, both musically and visually, but I suppose I ought to see it again to be fair to it.

[Mark G. Simon]

215 - a notational experiment - an attempt to do away with 'tuplet' figures and brackets and replace them with noteheads of different shapes. One of music's great experimenters (but most excitingly for him, he once met Janacek...that's not really part of the clue though, just an excuse for me to mention the big J again  )

I was wondering about this "shape note" music. It doesn't quite look like something that came from the Sacred Harp.

224 - this is a piano reduction of an orchestral score, but one of the weirdest ones I've seen. At some points - like here - the composer (who seems to be responsible for the reduction) includes pretty much everything, resulting in music which is utterly unplayable. At other points, the reduction is rather thin and lots is missed out that really ought to be there. I can't see any consistency in this approach. The original piece is a symphonic poem but was intended to be a ballet whose scenario includes a virgin and a monster or two; each action is indicated in the score. It is incredibly orchestrated and includes parts for viola d'amore and violinophone (the latter a violin attached to a horn, invented by the composer who has been called by a reputable voice the finest orchestrator of all).

The only orchestral work I know of that includes a violinophone is Villa Lobos' Uirapuru. I recall playing that piece and talking to a violinist who was looking at his part and saying "violinophone, what the heck is that???"

[lukeottevanger]

I was wondering about this "shape note" music. It doesn't quite look like something that came from the Sacred Harp.

No, not exactly the Sacred harp, more the ........no, that would be too much of a clue

The only orchestral work I know of that includes a violinophone is Villa Lobos' Uirapuru. I recall playing that piece and talking to a violinist who was looking at his part and saying "violinophone, what the heck is that???"

Well, you are very, very close indeed with this.

[Sean]

OT, but watching the Pruit Igoe video I'm stuck, as ever, by the character of American architecture and the deep sense of mystery and emptiness (not necessarily in a bad sense), and people-lessnes- all as in Hopper's paintings. I've asked about this before but nobody seems to have any explanantions for it: is this strong aesthetic character of America, and the West, an expression of the baselessness of our civilization? (eg the serious emerging problems of postmodernism, democracy, oil).

[Sean]

I mean, it's like the world is already abandoned.

Anyway, there's a much better recording of the music- I have it in the 5CD film music set, but I forget the performers.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

OT, but watching the Pruit Igoe video I'm stuck, as ever, by the character of American architecture and the deep sense of mystery and emptiness (not necessarily in a bad sense), and people-lessnes- all as in Hopper's paintings. I've asked about this before but nobody seems to have any explanantions for it: is this strong aesthetic character of America, and the West, an expression of the baselessness of our civilization? (eg the serious emerging problems of postmodernism, democracy, oil).

OT - I don't have the time to go into all this. But I suggest you read French philosopher Paul Virilio, who writes about the relation between speed, power, the desert, the destruction of space (and habitation) in favour of time. There is also Baudrillard, whom I haven't read directly, but indirectly through all the references to him I have come across through the years - he has written about America and exactly that 'emptiness' you mention (which is like a screen you can project things on). Look them up. Their language takes some getting used to, but once you 'crack the code', they are very stimulating. You can find several interviews with Virilio online. Don't know about Baudriilard, though.

I also think you should distinguish between the USA and Europe, they are very different in their history and, subsequently, sense of history, and historic destiny (and destination).

[Sean]

Many thank Jezetha. Baudriilard I've read a little of- he's a heavyweight relativist deconstructionist and too objectionable and infuriating to persist with for long. But I haven't heard of Virilio and will have to see what he's got to say. Don't you think it's peculiar though- the facades of American buildings just don't look real, the regular interiors of corridors have this weird ethereal distanced quality and dark moodiness, and things like tunnels or curving pathways can have this reverberating presence to them, with nobody there.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Many thank Jezetha. Baudriilard I've read a little of- he's a heavyweight relativist deconstructionist and too objectionable and infuriating to persist with for long. But I haven't heard of Virilio and will have to see what he's got to say. Don't you think it's peculiar though- the facades of American buildings just don't look real, the regular interiors of corridors have this weird ethereal distanced quality and dark moodiness, and things like tunnels or curving pathways can have this reverberating presence to them, with nobody there.

Although you find him infuriating, Baudrillard actually says something quite similar, Sean, and much much more. Sometimes it is advantageous to rise above feelings of distaste to see what is there to be learned. I don't like Heidegger very much, for instance, but there are some aspects of his later thinking about technology I find fascinating. So, I think you really should give Baudrillard another chance. Have a look at his 'America' (there are excerpts, use Google, and there is Amazon, of course).

[karlhenning]

Baudriilard I've read a little of- he's a heavyweight relativist deconstructionist and too objectionable and infuriating to persist with for long.

I think we've found paulb's long-lost brother . . . .

[karlhenning]

. . . So, I think you really should give Baudrillard another chance.

paulob only needs 60 seconds to determine the worth of a half-hour symphony . . . .

[lukeottevanger]

OT, but watching the Pruit Igoe video I'm stuck, as ever, by the character of American architecture and the deep sense of mystery and emptiness (not necessarily in a bad sense), and people-lessnes- all as in Hopper's paintings. I've asked about this before but nobody seems to have any explanantions for it: is this strong aesthetic character of America, and the West, an expression of the baselessness of our civilization? (eg the serious emerging problems of postmodernism, democracy, oil).

Whilst trying to track down a screenshot of the Koyaanisqatsi aeroplane for this thread I discovered that the architect of Pruit Igoe complex was also the architect of the World Trade Centre - Minoru Yamasaki. I'm not sure if that will appeal to your conspiracy theories in some way, Sean!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

paulob only needs 60 seconds to determine the worth of a half-hour symphony . . . .

Yes, a pity I can't be that quick. 

[lukeottevanger]

I think we've found paulb's long-lost brother . . . .

I thought you meant Baudrillard first time I read that, not Sean. Paul Baudrillard...hmm, yes, it has a ring to it. And both penetrating analysts of the world we live in, too.

[Sean]

Okay Jezetha, I'll have a look this afternoon.

Luke, are you saying those demolished buildings in the film were by the same architect as the WTO? It fits exactly then doesn't it?- the nostalgia and beautiful sadness of the music, American unreality, and the WTO.

By the way, did anyone else think in the back of their minds that the WTO always had to come down in some kind of disaster? The 1993 attack on itt brought me round to this- because it was the centrepiece of NYC, the capital of the world, and there's something profoundly unstable about our world.

[lukeottevanger]

Okay Jezetha, I'll have a look this afternoon.

Luke, are you saying those demolished buildings in the film were by the same architect as the WTO?

According to the article I read by Alex Ross, yes. To quote

To depict the decay and destruction of the Pruitt-Igoe housing complex, in St. Louis, the composer writes a monstrous neo-Baroque moto perpetuo, which, as the buildings fall, devolves into nothing more than descending scales. (This footage has become more haunting with time; Minoru Yamasaki, who designed Pruitt-Igoe, was also the architect of the World Trade Center.)

[Sean]

Oh hi there Luke. Drinking beer here in an internet cafe, kind of bored, especially after reading a chunk of dodgy thinking from Baudrillard (he argues against jogging as part of his social critique...).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Oh hi there Luke. Drinking beer here in an internet cafe, kind of bored, especially after reading a chunk of dodgy thinking from Baudrillard (he argues against jogging as part of his social critique...).

You are clearly still not getting on with our friend B... 

[lukeottevanger]

Let's get on track with an at-present pertinent score sample:

LO 226

[(poco) Sforzando]

More Grainger?

[lukeottevanger]

No, though I see why you'd say that. More recent, and, to be fair, not representative of the usual idea of this composer.