Musicians Also Can Be Very Nasty

Started by Homo Aestheticus, December 19, 2008, 12:41:41 AM

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Homo Aestheticus

It was a bit shocking to read this very mean attack by NY Philharmonic trombonist David Finlayson on Gilbert Kaplan, a man who has devoted his later years to studying/conducting Mahler's  Resurrection  symphony.... And I don't care what Mr. Kaplan's shortcomings are as a conductor.... Was this really called for ?   

It's only a piece of music for crying out loud !

Here:

http://davidfinlayson.typepad.com/fin_notes/2008/12/some-words-about-gilbert-kaplan.html

helios

Can't really disagree with what he wrote though?

knight66

I read right through the item and the replies. I don't really see anything wrong with what he says, though I would agree it is hardly a life or death issue. I owned Kaplan's first recording. It seemed dramatically inert to me, dead in the water, I got rid of it. He is only there due to his money, anyone attempting this ego trip, without the entry fee, would get the brushoff. There ought to be things that money cannot buy.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: knight on December 19, 2008, 01:05:11 AMHe is only there due to his money, anyone attempting this ego trip, without the entry fee, would get the brushoff. There ought to be things that money cannot buy.

Oops, I did forget about the money issue...   :-[    But how do you know that ? And is it fair to simply call it an "ego trip" ?

This was the best response, I think:

I heard Gilbert Kaplan conduct the Mahler years ago, in Colorado, and it was a beautiful performance. I love Mahler, and especially this piece, and I'm no professional musician ... perhaps the players were the stars who shone and not the conductor. I'm somewhat astonished that you, a celebrated musician with one of the finest orchestras in the world, did not check out his conducting prior to agreeing to play under him. Why, with as many reviews as there have been on the man's work, did you not simply put your instrument down and refuse to comply? Or call in sick?

You are so disgusted with your management for renting out the conductor's post that you refused payment for your performance, right? And got your colleagues to do the same? Tell me you did so and my respect for your high and mighty attitude will increase.To wail and moan after the fact, and in such a mean-spirited way, seems not only unprofessional, it's just downright rude. The man may not be the pro you wished to play for, but he deserves some respect as a human being, nevertheless. Shame on you...





knight66

#4
1) I seem to recollect that this is a conflation of two replies.

2) Why should the musician refuse payment for having done the work?

3) The only other person who had worked under Kaplan's batton had the same opinion as the NY player.

4) The second comment you quote above, is from someone who admits he has no idea whether it was the orchestra who carried the performance.

5) Yes, I have read about Kaplan and he is extremely wealthy. The items I read made it clear that the usual engagement arrangements in London were reversed, ie, far from being paid for his appearance, he paid to appear, and paid handsomely. He has also paid to be coached by people who I doubt usually coach non-professionals and bought Mahler's manuscript. Without his money, he would be writing on this site, not standing in front of orchestras while they make him look like he knows what he is doing.

6) Turning to the naive comment that the players ought to check out the capabilities of a conductor before engaging them; most players have no say in who is engaged, though I do know that for some orchestras there are informal bans on specific conductors. It depends on the dynamics in the management system. But most players are contracted to play for whoever the management stick in front of them. Not much different from being in a factory and deciding you don't intend to work on the cars that are being sent to Italy, it would not happen.

7) As to the unkindness of the comments; no one made Kaplan do what he does, it is very public, if the praise is OK for public consumption, then so are critical comments. They are harsh, but frank and probably accurate.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

knight66

By the way, Eric...do you agree that there ought to be things that money cannot buy?

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Lethevich

It may interest some to mention that our beloved M (may be rest in peace 0:)), who is rather harsh on conductors whom he considers inexperienced or overhyped, actually quite likes Kaplan. I or somebody else could dig up his quotes on it from RMCR if anybody cares - it put the guy on my radar, to be honest, as previously I hadn't taken him seriously enough to listen to.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

karlhenning

Not that it much matters, but this feels Diner-ish to me.

Superhorn

   Orchestral musicians have always been  highly critical of conductors who don't measure up in their opinion, and no one is a better judge of them.
They can tell instantly whether a conductor  knows his or her business, has a good ear, a good  baton technique, can rehearse efficiently, and really knows the score etc.
  Sometimes an orchestra will play well INSPITE of the conductor, not because of him or her.
  The  New York Philharmonic is accustomed to working under highly skillful professionals such as Maazel, Mehta, Colin Davis, Gergiev, Muti, Slatkin,Dutoit, and others. It's a drag working under some one who lacks their ability. Whenever a conductor appears for the first time with a US orchestra, the musicians fill out an evaluation sheet to rank his or her knowledge,and technical skill. Those who don't measure up are unlikely to be invited back.
  Major orchestras don't re engage conductors the orchestra considers incompetent. Kaplan's engagement was a fluke.
  I haven't heard any of Kaplan's Mahler 2 performances or recordings, but would definitely like to.  Still, you have to admire the sheer enthusiasm,dedication and single-mindedness  of this guy, and his generousness to orchestras.

Dundonnell

#9
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E1DA163FF93BA25757C0A9649C8B63

I am afraid that the Montreal Symphony Orchestra fell out dramatically with Charles Dutoit!

Wonder how he will fair in Philadelphia?

And, the BBC Symphony Orchestra couldn't get along with Leonard Slatkin either ;D

Lethevich

Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2008, 08:19:28 AM
I am afraid that the Montreal Symphony Orchestra fell out dramatically with Charles Dutoit!

I understand that standards are already dropping since he has left - the ousting seems like a shot in the foot, as the Dutoit/Montreal brand was quite a strong one in recordings as well - it brought in the money.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Dundonnell

Well...Kent Nagano? Um...........in some repertoire perhaps?


Brian

Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2008, 08:19:28 AM

And, the BBC Symphony Orchestra couldn't get along with Leonard Slatkin either ;D
It's my understanding that that had something to do with Slatkin making some appearances with Evelyn Glennie in the British tabloids...

Dundonnell

Quote from: Brian on December 19, 2008, 08:51:20 AM
It's my understanding that that had something to do with Slatkin making some appearances with Evelyn Glennie in the British tabloids...

Not the only reason. Slatkin got some bad reviews and got accused of a lousy choice of repertoire. Mind you, the BBC Symphony Orchestra is not the easiest orchestra to work with!

knight66

Why would a relationship with Glennie that have upset the orchestra? There have been a number of partnerships between conductors and soloists of one sort or another, I have not heard these caused particular problems. Though, there did seem to be some kind of problem or other betwen Slatkin and the BBC Orch.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

knight66

Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2008, 08:55:58 AM
Not the only reason. Slatkin got some bad reviews and got accused of a lousy choice of repertoire. Mind you, the BBC Symphony Orchestra is not the easiest orchestra to work with!

I was in chorus for a performance being conducted by David Wilcocks. During rehearsal the BBC brass swapped instruments and the timpanist disappeared part way through. Wilcocks turned to cue him in, an empty space and silence.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Dundonnell

Quote from: knight on December 19, 2008, 08:57:49 AM
Why would a relationship with Glennie that have upset the orchestra? There have been a number of partnerships between conductors and soloists of one sort or another, I have not heard these caused particular problems. Though, there did seem to be some kind of problem or other betwen Slatkin and the BBC Orch.

Mike

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article481404.ece

knight66

It looks like the Glennie issue was a sideshow.


Quote: "However, his real sin lay in the kind of music that he liked to conduct. Although he could not be faulted for promoting English music, which the BBCSO performed more than most London orchestras, the players apparently looked askance at his love of contemporary American music at the expense of the core German repertoire.............................

He compounded this offence by ignoring the cutting-edge contemporary music that had become the BBCSO's standard fare. One critic said that this trend had become a "recipe for playing to half-empty houses" and Slatkin was clearly hoping to attract larger audiences."

The BBC orch can be variable, great one night and so-so the next, but it is a very busy orchestra indeed, especially during prom season.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

karlhenning

"Love of contemporary American music at the expense of the core German repertoire"; the Kiss of Death!

karlhenning

Luckily, I've been listening to Schumann this week, so I'm inoculated at the moment.