Musicians Also Can Be Very Nasty

[karlhenning]

Could you please tell me why my wishing to conduct Debussy's  Prelude to The Afternoon of a Faun  bothers you ?

This isn't about anything bothering me, Eric.

No one who is incompetent to conduct, has any business wasting the time of seventy musical professionals.

[karlhenning]

Some competency in music theory would be a plus, too.

Tell us about this triad which you imagine you can improve upon, Eric.

[Brian]

Some competency in music theory would be a plus, too.

Tell us about this triad which you imagine you can improve upon, Eric.

I kind of want to cause a distraction of some kind, so allow me to mention my theory that Beethoven's Violin Concerto would have been better as a cello concerto. 

[Dundonnell]

I kind of want to cause a distraction of some kind, so allow me to mention my theory that Beethoven's Violin Concerto would have been better as a cello concerto. 

.....and written by Brahms

[karlhenning]

.....and written by Brahms

I have a plan to make Brahms's scoring in the symphonies more transparent . . . .

[karlhenning]

My justification for wishing to do so, of course, is that they fascinate me no end.

[Brian]

I have a plan to make Brahms's scoring in the symphonies more transparent . . . .

How about the Symphony No. 1 for wind band and percussion ensemble?

[karlhenning]

How about the Symphony No. 1 for wind band and percussion ensemble?

You know, you get a whimsical idea, and it takes on a life of its own.  Just  before nodding off to sleep (and the fact that I had just been listening to the Bonzo Dog Doo/Dah Band was probably an absurdist factor) I thought of that C major tune from the finale, played three octaves higher by a picc, accompanied by spoons.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Some competency in music theory would be a plus, too.

Not necessarily since all I need is to hear the sounds as they are played.... My sensitive ears are sufficient  for this particular work only.

No one who is incompetent to conduct, has any business wasting the time of seventy musical professionals.

The abilities of the conductor are totally overrated, o.k. ?  I believe that kindness, gentleness, humility and above all, LOVE for the composition are most important when communicating with a group of musicians.

Another thing:  music is not science or philosophy or medicine or some life and death situation. You and other musicians need to stop taking yourselves so seriously.

The Freud biographer Peter Gay said it best:

"The creative artist, that most cherished of human creatures, appeared in some psychoanalytic treatments [i.e., written treatments both by Freud and by other psychoanalysts] as nothing better than an adroit and articulate neurotic duping a gullible world with his clever inventions. Freud did not merely dispute the "creativeness" of creative artists, he also circumscribed their cultural role. Shouting out society's secrets, they are little better than necessary licensed gossips, fit only to reduce the tensions that have accumulated in the public's mind.  Freud saw the making of art, literature and music, as well as their consumption, as human pursuits much like others, enjoying no special status.  To his mind, aesthetic work, much like the making of love or war, of laws or constitutions, is a way of mastering the world, or of disguising one's failure to master it. The difference is that novels and paintings veil their ultimately utilitarian purposes behind skillfully crafted, often irresistible decorations.

Appearances to the contrary, Freud did not take his view of the arts in order to discredit them wholly. Whether it is made of wit or suspense, of dazzling color or persuasive composition, the aesthetic mask hiding primitive passions provides pleasure. It helps to make life tolerable to maker and audience alike. Thus, for Freud, the arts are a cultural narcotic, but without the long-range costs that other drugs exact"

*******

[greg]

Another thing:  music is not science or philosophy or medicine or some life and death situation. You and other musicians need to stop taking yourselves so seriously.

That's the only way to go. Imagine a non-serious Wagner or Debussy. What would you have to listen to, then?

[Joe_Campbell]

Another thing:  music is not science or philosophy or medicine or some life and death situation. You and other musicians need to stop taking yourselves so seriously.

Music is a language. Not knowing the language means that the message, no matter how sincere or pure, will inevitably get lost in translation. Your good intentions will be suffocated by your inability to communicate them effectively.

[Homo Aestheticus]

I read right through the item and the replies.

Mike,

Did you read this one:

I've never heard one of Mr. Kaplan's concerts, but your post raises an interesting philosophical question.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that Kaplan was as inept in rehearsal as you say, but that the performance on the night was good (thanks to the efforts of the orchestra, let's suppose, rather than the conductor).

Does it matter that Kaplan can't lead a rehearsal or hold a beat if the audience members still have a good experience?

Furthermore, consider the possibility that some audience members even experienced the music more intensely because of their awareness of Kaplan's story, his "obsession" or his amateur status. Perhaps they would have had a less intense reaction to, say, a Maazel-led concert, for purely extramusical reasons.

Does this mean that Kaplan would actually have been a "better" conductor, for this particular concert, than Maazel?

Discuss.

****

[knight66]

Oh Eric, you draw me back in when I really do not want to post constant disagreement!

OK....several issues here.

I am not sure we ought to entertain philosophical discussions, when we are trying to clarify rather than obfuscate the issues. I don't think what the guy posited amount to suggestions on philosophy.

If the concert was good despite the conductor; I am not for going with the praise for theincompetent. This is a profession, not a hobby. There are plenty of performances at a hobby level. Let those who don't cut the mustard move aside and go for the hobby option. There, expectations and tickets are lower, people are doing it for love, not to earn a livelihood and I don't see why a conductor who can't conduct should be landed on the pros. who devote their reputations and livelihoods to ensuring quality on all levels.

If it was just the orchestra who managed to hold it together, though I would always be sceptical such a thing could be achieved over an entire symphony; then why should some semi competent upfront garner the praise?

I don't think someone's biography cuts any ice here at this level of the profession. Either they are superb musicians or they are not. On disc, I am not about to appreciate a blind pianist because he manages the music reasonably well.

BTW, I know about Freud's ideas on art, very odd; when art illuminates or reflects the artist and society. One might think he would find it a useful tool. But of course, his distain basically fits into his masturbatory theories. Remember that a lot of what Freud wrote is not seen as orthodox now.

Mike

[MishaK]

Freud saw the making of art, literature and music, as well as their consumption, as human pursuits much like others, enjoying no special status.  To his mind, aesthetic work, much like the making of love or war, of laws or constitutions, is a way of mastering the world, or of disguising one's failure to master it.

I'm afraid you've completely misunderstood that. The point is not that Freud thought that any amateur could make music as well as any professional. It is that Freud objected to the deification of artists in central European turn-of-the-century society. What he is saying is that an artist is no better than any other practitcioner of any other craft, e.g. carpentry or pottery. Yet you wouldn't ask an amateur electrician to do the wiring in your new house. You want a licensed pro to do it, so your house doesn't go up in flames because of an accidental short. Freud isn't saying that there aren't any difficult aspects of musical craftsmanship that an amateur can just ignore. He is merely saying that music and art are crafts like any other. Even that view is highly debatable, and just because Freud said it, doesn't make it so. But either way, Freud does not at all support your argument here.

[Homo Aestheticus]

I'm afraid you've completely misunderstood that. The point is not that Freud thought that any amateur could make music as well as any professional.

That is not at all how I construed it, Mensch.   

It is that Freud objected to the deification of artists in central European turn-of-the-century society. What he is saying is that an artist is no better than any other practitcioner of any other craft, e.g. carpentry or pottery.

Yes, I agree. That was my point.

[MishaK]

That is not at all how I construed it, Mensch.   

Yes, I agree. That was my point.

In context with your qoutes below it sure doesn't seem that we agree:

Mike, what really ticks me off is this idea that in order to have any special insights into a piece of music one must be a trained, professional musician... Why do we have such little respect for the discernment of the 'mere' listener ?

Again, why is it that you believe aesthetic sensitivity and perception resides only in the minds of professional musicians ?

The point is - and here I think Freud wouldn't disagree, and that is where you misread him - that ability to produce coherent music does indeed require extensive training and honing of craftsmanship. An untrained amateur will not be able to technically measure up to a pro. Freud is objecting to genius-worship, not to the distinction between amateur and pro that exists in any other trade and craft as well. You may have the greatest ideas about L'après midi, but you will not be able to adequately translate those ideas into a sound that measures up to your mental concept because you are inadequately trained in musicianship and will not be able to teach your musicians how to produce the sound you want because you have no idea how all those instruments facing you are operated. Conducting may seem like a mere excersise in management where one guy with an idea tells others what to do and relies on their talents to put those ideas into action. And that may be the kind of conducting that Kaplan is practicing. But real conductors get results not just because they have musical ideas, but because they know how their musicians should produce the sounds they want to hear. And that requires extensive study, skill and musicianship, You first have to have some first hand understanding of different bowings, attacks, etc. before you can even conceive how a particular sound should be made.

[Homo Aestheticus]

You may have the greatest ideas about L'après midi, but you will not be able to adequately translate those ideas into a sound that measures up to your mental concept because you are inadequately trained in musicianship and will not be able to teach your musicians how to produce the sound you want because you have no idea how all those instruments facing you are operated.

O.k. Mensch, that does make sense to me now.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Mike,

Remember that a lot of what Freud wrote is not seen as orthodox now.

Yes, and thank goodness for that.

In the 1940's and 50's the German-American psychoanalytic theorist  Karen Horney  came much closer to the truth than Freud with her emphasis on culture:

Here is an excellent summary of her ideas: http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/horney.html

It really is first-rate stuff.

Then later in the 1970's and 80's  Habib Davanloo  a psychiatrist from McGill University pioneered Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy and discovered through extensive videotaping of therapy sessions how the unconscious can be "unlocked"

Now, when was the last time you heard the names of these two in American culture ? Never.

(And the United States has the highest concentration of 'mental health professionals' in the world)

[Superhorn]

   By the way, I recently read a review on the web, I can't remember where, of a new recording of a transcription of the Beethoven violin concerto for cello.
  I don't remember the performers; they were new names to me, but I recall that the orchestra was the Sofia Philharmonic of Bulgaria.
  The review was favorable. You might check these sites for the recording;
arkivmusic.com, classicalcdreview.com, or classicstoday.com.

[karlhenning]

   By the way, I recently read a review on the web, I can't remember where, of a new recording of a transcription of the Beethoven violin concerto for cello.

Curiously, before there was any recording available (the premiere recording has since appeared on the Chandos label) of Shostakovich's reorchestration of the accompaniment to Schumann's Cello Concerto, Gidon Kremer recorded it in an adaptation for violin.  (A friend has lent me this, but I haven't yet listened to it . . . .)