Musicians Also Can Be Very Nasty

[knight66]

Eric, This is not a meeting of minds.

Mike

[Homo Aestheticus]

Eric, This is not a meeting of minds.

Again, why is it that you believe aesthetic sensitivity and perception resides only in the minds of professional musicians ?

[jlaurson]

Now let's say I had the financial resources to rent out a fine orchestra, stand on the podium (or have someone else there) and explain to them exactly what I wanted them to do, how to play, etc... Remember, I am paying them handsomely for their time.

Are you saying that even if I were to approach them in a spirit of humility, they'd be annoyed by this whole endeavor ?

Even I have to burst that bubble. Absolutely, positively, 100% yes. And you'd be lucky if they were only annoyed.
Convince one person, sure. If you are lucky even one section. But 100 people? You can't even find 100 people on this forum to agree with you, and for writing anything here, you need no special skills. So, I am afraid, it is a pipe-dream. Goodwill on part of the orchestra members can only be bought by respect or sheer skill. Great musicians have failed, if they were not good conductors, also. Heck, most of the times, even good conductors fail to REALLY tickle the last bit out of a performance.

Cheers -- & best

jfl

[Homo Aestheticus]

Even I have to burst that bubble. Absolutely, positively, 100% yes. And you'd be lucky if they were only annoyed.
Convince one person, sure. If you are lucky even one section. But 100 people? You can't even find 100 people on this forum to agree with you, and for writing anything here, you need special skills. So, I am afraid, it is a pipe-dream. Goodwill on part of the orchestra members can only be bought by respect or sheer skill. Great musicians have failed, if they were not good conductors, also. Heck, most of the times, even good conductors fail to REALLY tickle the last bit out of a performance.

Cheers -- & best

jfl

Thanks anyway Jens... You're a gentleman.

(logs off in a downcast mood)

[karlhenning]

Of course, one cannot be genuinely indignant over Eric's 'offer' to 'improve' any of Debussy's triads, as it is scarcely possible he knows what he's talking about.

[karlhenning]

. . . You can't even find 100 people on this forum to agree with you, and for writing anything here, you need special skills.

I am sure this is a reading which mistunes your intent . . . but I am sure you will agree that one needs special skills to conduct an orchestra, no less 

So, I am afraid, it is a pipe-dream. Goodwill on part of the orchestra members can only be bought by respect or sheer skill.

Excellent good sense, i' faith.  To the frank confession, "You know, I have no qualifications to be at this podium," the perfectly sensible reply is going to be, "Then there must be some other place for you to be, better suited to your skills.

"Get along there; that's a good fellow."

[knight66]

"Get along there; that's a good fellow."

Well Karl, that's a nice sentiment, but from observation, the inevitable dismissal would be much more Anglo Saxon than that.

Mind you, Eric might get away without actual loss of blood, since there is no brass in the Debussy piece.

Mike

[jlaurson]

Thanks anyway Jens... You're a gentleman.
(logs off in a downcast mood)

The prerequisite of dreaming [without getting beat-up for it by certain others] is to have a glimpse of reality.  But that doesn't mean we stop dreaming, of course. My dream is to be brought in as "idiomatic consultant" on a performance of Mahler's First. Of course I just happen to be present at the rehearsal, when the conductor turns to me... and I do it only very reluctantly (or so I'll make it seem)... and then - because they asked me to do it, and because the conductor has transferred his authority unto me - the orchestra (well, half of it, anyway - the others continue to read magazines) listens with rapture to my impassioned speech about getting that friggin opening just right. (See Abbado doing it to near-perfection in Lucerne.) 
But hey, it's my dream - and I conduct when I want to!

[knight66]

Thanks for the link to the Abbado performance. I thought it was interesting to see that the orchestra plays a beat behind; obviously not late, but they have agreed on that option as against playing on the beat.

I have heard various conductors mention this; some say that the best orchestras play with the beat; but I don't think that is true. Rather it might be that some less able ones perhaps cannot. One I heard say that although he used the straight up in the air entry signal for the opera house as an on-the-beat entry to the singers, he expected to be able to use it in a concert setting despite the prevalent behind the beat method he used there.....we just had to watch him especially carefully.

Here is a performance with the Berlin Phil where they play on the point of Abbado's beat.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CSL3xNi9OLQ

Mike

[karlhenning]

. . . But hey, it's my dream - and I conduct when I want to!

And without wasting anyone else's time;  for which consideration, you are to be commended.

Well Karl, that's a nice sentiment, but from observation, the inevitable dismissal would be much more Anglo Saxon than that.

Mind you, Eric might get away without actual loss of blood, since there is no brass in the Debussy piece.

Mike

Just two pair of horns, but not the sort apt to gore him.

[MishaK]

Thanks for the link to the Abbado performance. I thought it was interesting to see that the orchestra plays a beat behind; obviously not late, but they have agreed on that option as against playing on the beat.

Actually, the audio is just a tad behind the image.

[knight66]

Perhaps a little behind the beat, but not a full beat.

Karl, yes, I can hear the horns in my head now. Quite right.

Mike

[karlhenning]

I thought I remembered just a pair of horns, but on checking the score . . . .

[karlhenning]

I thought I remembered just a pair of horns, but on checking the score . . . .

[karlhenning]

Knowing the score well and being able to conduct an orchestra are two different things.

And, just liking a piece a whoooole lot, is yet a third different thing.

[karlhenning]

Oh, fully agreed. And that was one of my points earlier. There are many conductors whose stage presence is mostly decorative. But while the orchestra might produce competent performances despite them, it is highly unlikely that they would produce a truly insightful or memorable one. For that they would need an actually more than just competent conductor. But that is a difference one should be able to hear in a blind listening comparison. A professional orchestra can competently slog through a standard repertoire piece despite the conductor. But they cannot produce a meaningful and coherent interpretation.

This is a problem with the present jet-setting practice.  Guest conductors fly in, have one or two rehearsals, and conduct a program.  Not much opportunity for "getting to know you," musically.

[MishaK]

This is a problem with the present jet-setting practice.  Guest conductors fly in, have one or two rehearsals, and conduct a program.  Not much opportunity for "getting to know you," musically.

And very easy for the orchestra to ignore you completely, unfortunately. Just not enough rehearsal time to make a real impact. There have been a few one-off guest conductors who've come through Chicago recently, that I have been impressed with precisely because they managed to make an audible difference in the sound of the orchestra and pull off very fine performances despite being airdropped in for only three or four rehearsals. In particular, Morlot, Dudamel and Luisi have been outstanding.

[Homo Aestheticus]

My dream is to be brought in as "idiomatic consultant" on a performance of Mahler's First

Sounds great... I too am very fond of the D-major symphony.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Mind you, Eric might get away without actual loss of blood, since there is no brass in the Debussy piece.

Mike,

I would be much less worried about the french horns than those beautiful antique  cymbals  which Debussy calls for towards the end of the piece. Since they resemble small metal disks the percussionist could very easily chuck them in my direction.

[Homo Aestheticus]

The perfectly sensible reply is going to be, "Then there must be some other place for you to be, better suited to your skills.

"Get along there; that's a good fellow."

Could you please tell me why my wishing to conduct Debussy's  Prelude to The Afternoon of a Faun  bothers you ?  Why do you feel the need to make these derisory remarks especially given the fact that I had not addressed you at all in the thread up to that point ?  Moreover, this particular composition isn't even a favorite of yours the last time I checked.

Again, WHY do you care in the least about my passion for this music ?