Musicians Also Can Be Very Nasty

[Lethevich]

Great art will prove impressive, even in ruins.

I think Havergal Brian fans are all too aware of this... 0:)

[knight66]

I think Havergal Brian fans are all too aware of this... 0:)

Ouf! The unkindest cut of all! You know you will be on certain persons' lists now.

When I said I could be fooled on a blind test, that was with reference to not knowing who had conducted the piece, but I still maintain, I would find it flat. I well remember my keen disappointment with that first recording after equally keen anticipation.

As to amateur: there are lots of really good amateur musicians around, but they have been trained widely and in depth in music; not trained like a dog to manage one piece. So it is not really an issue with me. I am an amateur singer and when I said on this site that I had done the Mahler 8th with Boulez, one reply was to the effect; I did not think he worked with mere amateurs. Without the freebie folk, a work such as Mahler 8 is not going to happen. So amateur as such is not the issue, rather the completely artificial way Kaplan has been trained for one piece.

I also watched at close quarters a lot of conductors and I observing some very poor behaviour and a number of times I saw the orchestra pull the conductor's chestnuts out of the fire, even for some well known names.

So, to clarify yet again; as one or two here seem to be determined to misunderstand me....

The issue that I did not like Kaplan's Mahler 2 is nothing to do with his amateur status, I simply did not respond well to it.

Along side that, I don't admire the way he buys himself a hobby. No doubt there are amateurs who could give a fantastic M2 with some study; but without the money, no chance....he buys his way into this privileged position.

If I liked his Mahler 2, I would remain suspect of his methods of getting what he wants.

I agree, the orchestra seem mealy mouthed, as I pointed out, it was a benefit, a sell out and I assume he was willing to provide his services without eating into their pension fund.

It is possible that such a prestigious concert, 100 years from when it was first presented in NY, has been the real catalyst here. Perhaps the orchestra felt they deserved a chance to celebrate that piece with a conductor they felt was at the top of the heap, rather than a part-timer.

As to looking bored; I am often surprised how often this happens. I should think the occasions I saw the Jerusalem Phil. would offer a challenge to the NY folk as to who was showing it most obviously.

Mike

[Superhorn]

   To be fair to Koussevitzky, his conducting technique appears to have improved somewhat after some years in Boston, and the musicians got accustomed to his quirks.
  But playing under him was not easy, and written evidence, such as in"The Great Conductors" by the late Harold Schonberg (an indispensable book for any one interested in conductors and conducting, and the biography by Moses Smith,which was so unfavorable that Koussevitzky reportedly tried to have it suppressed, confirms this. I have read the long out of print Smith biography, and it is very unflattering at times,though very interesting.
  Kopussevitzky was also not that well trained musically, except as a bass player, and could not play the piano.(Neither can I because of problems with hand co-ordination which are apparently innate.)
  He hired the famous music historian,conductor , composer and pianist Nicolas Slonimsky to play reductions of orchestra scores to get practice conducting and familiarizing himself with music, as he was apparently not very good with score reading.
   My point is that if he were starting out today, without a rich wife to support him, he might not have been able to make a career,let alone being appointed to the BSO.

[Senta]

Been catching up here...

Found some interesting responses on the matter at this forum from other orchestral musicians.

Of course NYP trombonist Finlayson and the orchestra have a right to speak out about who gets in front of them, but the irony here is that this Kaplan concert in question was actually to benefit their own pension fund. Was it really the right thing to air the grievances so publicly?

It has however brought the question of "pay-to-play" very much back into limelight though. As seen at the above link, some orchestras auction off a chance to conduct the anthem or such at a gala for a fundraiser - though once, as a Minnesota violist describes, "the poor drunken sod paid north of $14,000 for the honor, and judging from his inebriated state, I'm betting he doesn't even have any memory of the experience..." Ouch. At what point, does it become musical prostitution?

Obviously, Kaplan was not right for the NYP - he may work out fine for some orchestras, but just not that ensemble. They have a certain, shall we say, famous grit that will hold a conductor's feet to the fire, and snippy though they may be, it is one of the orchestra's characteristics.

No matter how much study Kaplan has done on the Mahler 2, from what I've read on Finlayson's blog (and other anecdotes from musicians under him that have surfaced), clearly Kaplan's lack of deep musical training has found him wanting in rehearsal to many professional musicians. Money can perhaps buy you everything tangible, but not the intangible, such as respect.

On one hand the concept of money buying the way to the podium irks me, though it would irk me more if Kaplan did it in poor spirit, simply for the power and glory. Although from all I have read, he is truly attempting to further the scholarship of the work and is rather, in love with it, making it sincerely his life's work. So all this is very honorable, and his story is even inspiring.

With enough study on ONE work, you, me or anyone could probably get to know it quite well over many years, well enough to produce a decent performance I am sure. I have not heard Kaplan's recordings, but apparently they are anywhere from quite decent to very good from reviews. Naturally, when you have the LSO and WP at your disposal! But it still bothers me that money can buy the way to a position that would normally take someone's life work to get there.

Is there nothing sacred, nothing sacrosanct about the podium anymore? Has the maestro myth truly crumbled? And are these good or bad things? These are questions that will continue to rage on in debate through this new century...

[knight66]

Senta, What interesting stuff. Here is Lebrecht trying to knock down a point made by someone who took issue with his view of the matter.

"NL to Rudolf Grainger: There are professional conductors, too, who struggle to conduct. The instance that springs to mind is Serge Koussevitsky, who was unable to find a beat for The Rite of Spring until Nicolas Slominsky wrote the score out for him without bar-lines. Leonard Bernstein, Slonimsky told me, needed to use the same bar-less score."

I find it hard to believe that Bernstein had to use a Janet and John score. I don't find it hard to believe Lebrecht would adopt this dubious stance in bolstering his friend and his opinion.

Mike

[drogulus]

Senta, What interesting stuff. Here is Lebrecht trying to knock down a point made by someone who took issue with his view of the matter.

"NL to Rudolf Grainger: There are professional conductors, too, who struggle to conduct. The instance that springs to mind is Serge Koussevitsky, who was unable to find a beat for The Rite of Spring until Nicolas Slominsky wrote the score out for him without bar-lines. Leonard Bernstein, Slonimsky told me, needed to use the same bar-less score."

I find it hard to believe that Bernstein had to use a Janet and John score. I don't find it hard to believe Lebrecht would adopt this dubious stance in bolstering his friend and his opinion.

Mike

     Perhaps Bernstein preferred to use it. If he thought the bar lines hindered more than helped then that also may be true for other conductors wise enough not to express an opinion.

On one hand the concept of money buying the way to the podium irks me, though it would irk me more if Kaplan did it in poor spirit, simply for the power and glory. Although from all I have read, he is truly attempting to further the scholarship of the work and is rather, in love with it, making it sincerely his life's work. So all this is very honorable, and his story is even inspiring.

With enough study on ONE work, you, me or anyone could probably get to know it quite well over many years, well enough to produce a decent performance I am sure. I have not heard Kaplan's recordings, but apparently they are anywhere from quite decent to very good from reviews. Naturally, when you have the LSO and WP at your disposal! But it still bothers me that money can buy the way to a position that would normally take someone's life work to get there.

     I guess I don't understand the issue. For me it only matters how recordings/concerts come out. I can't imagine throwing anything worthwhile out on the grounds that the conductor bought his way in. I don't expect to know all the reasons why conductors have their jobs. When something works I can try to find out why, and the same goes for failures. Maybe Kaplan contributed nothing to the good of his conducting appearances, or maybe just a little. Considering the stories one hears about Koussevitsky it's clear that one needs to satisfy certain requirements minimally but not all of them maximally. There are many ways to bring about great performances, it seems, with no set pattern for how responsibility for them can be allocated to the various participants.

[Homo Aestheticus]

By the way, Eric...do you agree that there ought to be things that money cannot buy?

Yes of course.

Mike, what really ticks me off is this idea that in order to have any special insights into a piece of music one must be a trained, professional musician... Why do we have such little respect for the discernment of the 'mere' listener ?

In my case, I'm absolutely dying to get in front of an orchestra and make a special recording of Debussy's  Prelude to The Afternoon Of A Faun.  It is by far my greatest personal wish!   BUT, I would approach the musicians in a spirit of complete humility and tell them:

"My dear friends, Debussy's early masterpiece fascinates me to NO END. In my mind, the slightest change or vulgarity in tempo or phrasing or accent in this work, one of the glories of Western music, totally kills it, for me... May I share with you my ideas on how I believe we can make it more beautiful ? And perhaps we can look at making some revisions in the triad of the coda, etc. and so on"

****

Folks, before you jump on my case for being 'presumptuous' or 'arrogant' please understand that I am one of the most self-effacing persons you could ever meet. It's only when the topic is Debussy's  Faun  or  Pelleas  that I get wildly enthusiastic and believe I could make a very interesting contribution.

[jlaurson]

Folks, before you jump on my case for being 'presumptuous' or 'arrogant' please understand that I am one of the most self-effacing persons you could ever meet. It's only when the topic is Debussy's  Faun  or  Pelleas  that I get wildly enthusiastic and believe I could make a very interesting contribution.

People like us should -- in our pipe dreams, for we shall remain confined to them, I am afraid -- work *with* professional conductors in rehearsal. He can do the mechanics, we do the inspiring talks... the pointing out of subtleties... the "flavor". 

[karlhenning]

Suggesting that Debussy could stand some revision on your part, is neither humble nor self-effacing.

[karlhenning]

-- work *with* professional conductors in rehearsal. He can do the mechanics, we do the inspiring talks... the pointing out of subtleties... the "flavor". 

Right;  how would a professional conductor have any possible insights on subtleties or "flavor"?

[Homo Aestheticus]

People like us should -- in our pipe dreams, for we shall remain confined to them, I am afraid -- work *with* professional conductors in rehearsal. He can do the mechanics, we do the inspiring talks... the pointing out of subtleties... the "flavor". 

Wait, I like that arrangement!   

[Homo Aestheticus]

Right;  how would a professional conductor have any possible insights on subtleties or "flavor"?

Again, you're missing the point. Why is it that the perceptions of the "mere listener" cannot also be considered ? 

[jlaurson]

Right;  how would a professional conductor have any possible insights on subtleties or "flavor"?

The point is not to bring any "flavor" to the work [of course the conductor could bring his], the point is to utilize the skills of a professional conductor to bring one's own perceptions to the work, despite the technical and professional handicap that an amateur has. In other words: someone to execute our wishes to the orchestra.

Are you perhaps not getting some of the jocular element in this discussion on a purely hypothetical situation?

[karlhenning]

The point is not to bring any "flavor" to the work [of course the conductor could bring his], the point is to utilize the skills of a professional conductor to bring one's own perceptions to the work, despite the technical and professional handicap that an amateur has. In other words: someone to execute our wishes to the orchestra.

Are you perhaps not getting some of the jocular element in this discussion on a purely hypothetical situation?

Possibly not, since The Ardent Harp began this line of discussion with "what really ticks [him] off";  when Eric gets in Whinge Mode, he is one of the most humorless creatures on the planet.  In which case, Jens, I appreciate your efforts at injecting humor.

Eric is a kind of musical Lenin, envious of those in possession of what he lacks, and convinced that if only the streets ran red with the blood of the qualified musicians who "tick him off," he would Musically Rule. Ha-hah!

[knight66]

Eric,

Quote

"My dear friends, Debussy's early masterpiece fascinates me to NO END. In my mind, the slightest change or vulgarity in tempo or phrasing or accent in this work, one of the glories of Western music, totally kills it, for me... May I share with you my ideas on how I believe we can make it more beautiful ? And perhaps we can look at making some revisions in the triad of the coda, etc. and so on"

I can absolutely assure you; professional musicians do not want to be lectured and would rarely put up with it. What they want is someone who will conduct to the marks and make clear what is wanted in precise and brief technical instruction. You have to have earned their respect to get the right to 'explain' things.

You would be dog-meat after three minutes.

Mike

[karlhenning]

And thank you, Jens, for the reminder that the idea of Eric in front of an orchestra, attempting to conduct the Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, is pure delirium mere hypothesis 

[Homo Aestheticus]

Karl,

Possibly not, since The Ardent Harp began this line of discussion with "what really ticks [him] off";  when Eric gets in Whinge Mode, he is one of the most humorless creatures on the planet.  In which case, Jens, I appreciate your efforts at injecting humor.

Eric is a kind of musical Lenin, envious of those in possession of what he lacks, and convinced that if only the streets ran red with the blood of the qualified musicians who "tick him off," he would Musically Rule. Ha-hah!

And thank you, Jens, for the reminder that the idea of Eric in front of an orchestra, attempting to conduct the Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, is pure delirium mere hypothesis 

My only response to all this is:

Where does this come from and why are you such an insecure person ?

[Homo Aestheticus]

I can absolutely assure you; professional musicians do not want to be lectured and would rarely put up with it. What they want is someone who will conduct to the marks and make clear what is wanted in precise and brief technical instruction. You have to have earned their respect to get the right to 'explain' things.

You would be dog-meat after three minutes.

Mike,

It's not a lecture... It's a collaboration or suggesting on how to improve an aesthetic product.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as a kind, gentle and unassuming professional musician ?

[knight66]

Eric, You live in a world of your own. Of course as it is pure fantasy, run whatever scenario you want through your head. But I have been in probably hundreds of orchestral rehearsals with professional orchestras, the only conceptual chatting beyond an odd phrase or two was addressed to us in the choir. Sinopoli is the only one I ever heard give the orchestra a lecture. Even he did not attempt re orchestration. By the way, he talked the performance to death on that occasion; it was stillborn.

Anyway, as I said, pure fantasy, so as it is yours, have it any way you want.

Mike

[Homo Aestheticus]

Eric, You live in a world of your own. Of course as it is pure fantasy, run whatever scenario you want through your head. But I have been in probably hundreds of orchestral rehearsals with professional orchestras, the only conceptual chatting beyond an odd phrase or two was addressed to us in the choir. Sinopoli is the only one I ever heard give the orchestra a lecture. Even he did not attempt re orchestration. By the way, he talked the performance to death on that occasion; it was stillborn.

Anyway, as I said, pure fantasy, so as it is yours, have it any way you want.

Mike,

Let me make myself clear:

I would never dream of re-orchestrating  The Prelude To The Afternoon Of A Faun.  I am concerned solely with tempo, phrasing and accent.

However, I must admit that I've always been  very disappointed  that he (Debussy) cadences on a triad at the end: the piece seems to demand the infinite continuation of that pitch.

Anyway, now let's say I had the financial resources to rent out a fine orchestra, stand on the podium (or have someone else there) and explain to them exactly what I wanted them to do, how to play, etc... Remember, I am paying them handsomely for their time.

Are you saying that even if I were to approach them in a spirit of humility, they'd be annoyed by this whole endeavor ?